Après Last Days, vous aviez dit envisager un film plus commercial, produit par Hollywood. Pourquoi y avoir renoncé ?
J'y ai sans doute pensé un moment, mais on ne m'a rien proposé d'intéressant et j'avançais en parallèle sur des projets que je voulais développer à très petite échelle. A une époque, j'étais séduit par l'idée de travailler à l'intérieur du système hollywoodien pour y tenter des expériences, comme le remake plan par plan de Psychose, par exemple, mais je ne raisonne plus comme ça. Je n'ai pas choisi de tourner Paranoid Park pour rester indépendant ou pour creuser une veine expérimentale, mais simplement parce que j'ai été captivé par le roman de Blake Nelson (1). Il me permettait d'approcher ce « parc » où les jeunes font du skate à Portland, un endroit qui m'attire et m'intrigue depuis que j'habite cette ville. Le skate est un univers très singulier, une microsociété d'« outsiders » qui génère sa propre culture visuelle et musicale.
Comme à l'époque d'Elephant, vous avez choisi des acteurs non professionnels...
Plus ça va, plus j'aime travailler avec des non-professionnels parce qu'ils offrent quelque chose de très pur, de très instinctif. Et j'ai toujours été attiré par les jeunes acteurs et l'énergie qu'ils communiquent à mon cinéma. Le tournage est un moment de leur adolescence où ils sont amenés à se révéler. Pour Elephant, j'avais lancé une recherche dans les lycées de Portland. Cette fois, je suis passé par MySpace, c'est le meilleur moyen de rencontrer des ados aujourd'hui. Des ados passionnés.
Pourquoi avoir choisi le chef opérateur Chris Doyle, connu pour ses collaborations avec Wong Kar-wai ?
J'avais déjà travaillé avec lui sur Psycho. J'aime la souplesse et la liberté de son travail. Nous nous comprenons et nous avons pu prendre des risques, nous laisser porter par le mouvement des corps, le rythme, la fluidité des gestes. Nous nous sommes beaucoup inspirés des films de skate, visuellement passionnants.
Propos recueillis par Laurent Rigoulet pour Télérama, publiés le 28 octobre 2007
lundi 10 mai 2010
Gus van Sant
Qu’est-ce qui vous a décidé à adapter le roman de Blake Nelson ?
L’histoire se déroulait à Portland, ville que j’ai toujours beaucoup aimée. Il était question d’un jeune skate-boarder. Cela parlait également d’une situation difficile et particulièrement étouffante, autre point de l’histoire intéressant pour moi.
Avez-vous apporté des modifications au récit, ou à sa structure ?
J’ai beaucoup joué avec la structure de l’histoire. Il y a peu de parties du livre qui ne soient dans le film, mais structurellement, tout a été beaucoup manipulé.
Pourquoi avoir choisi de recruter vos acteurs via MySpace, ce réseau communautaire sur Internet ?
Je pense que c’est ce que devraient faire toutes les agences de casting pour trouver des lycéens, surtout maintenant que MySpace est à ce point répandu. Nous avons fait comme les autres, en essayant simplement de trouver les moyens de convaincre des amateurs de jouer dans le film.
Pourquoi avoir choisi de tourner à la fois en super-8 et en 35 mm ?
Parce que le support du film de skate est le super-8, et aussi la vidéo, et comme nous en utilisions un peu dans notre film, nous avons tourné quelques séquences supplémentaires de skate en super-8. Il est beaucoup plus difficile de tenir une caméra plus grande en se tenant sur une planche, c’est une des raisons. De plus le 35 mm est trop cher pour que les filmeurs de skate l’utilisent. Ensuite, le reste du film est tourné en 35 mm, le meilleur support selon moi.
Vos trois derniers films – Gerry, Elephant et Last Days – reposaient beaucoup sur des cadres et un découpage stables. Votre choix de confier l’image à Chris Doyle est d’autant plus surprenant…
Oui c’est vrai, Chris est connu pour sa cinématographie aérienne et très libre, et non pour ce que l'on pourrait appeler des cadres « stables ». Mais je crois que cela vient surtout de la période Wong Kar-Wai des années 90. Quand il a tourné pour la première fois avec Wong Kar-Wai , les cadres étaient tout à fait stables, mais ils se sont lâchés à mesure que les films devenaient moins conservateurs. J'ai vraiment essayé de pousser Chris dans un territoire instable, un territoire « grand angle », aussi à cause des derniers films de Wong Kar-Wai que j'avais vus, en particulier Les Anges déchus. Mais Chris était un peu circonspect. Nous avons ici autre chose, parfois instable dans l’utilisation du trépied et d’une caméra portable. Il y a beaucoup de styles différents dans le film. Beaucoup de ralentis, ce que j'ai encouragé aussi, inspirés par les derniers films de Wong Kar-Wai. Mais Chris a aussi fait La Jeune fille de l'eau, aux cadres très stables. Le monde du skate n'est cependant pas réputé pour ce genre de cadre, c'est un monde sur roues
Il y a manifestement un travail important sur le son. J’ai entendu dire que certaines séquences, notamment en super-8, étaient plus longues à l’origine. Le travail de post-production a-t-il été particulièrement long et intensif ?
Non, je crois que les séquences en super 8 sont restées pratiquement les mêmes. Peut-être y en avait-il au départ un peu plus. Le son, aussi détaillé qu’il puisse paraître, est surtout fait de paysages sonores, c’est l’œuvre de compositeurs. Le travail que nous avons fait dans la manipulation du son est plutôt simple, mais les paysages sonores, surtout ceux d’Ethan Rose, sont assez compliqués. C’est parfois comme si nous mettions des disques tout le long du film – mais des disques de musique peu traditionnelle. La post-production n’a duré que deux ou trois semaines.
Entretien réalisé par Antoine Thirion (extrait du Dossier de Presse).
L’histoire se déroulait à Portland, ville que j’ai toujours beaucoup aimée. Il était question d’un jeune skate-boarder. Cela parlait également d’une situation difficile et particulièrement étouffante, autre point de l’histoire intéressant pour moi.
Avez-vous apporté des modifications au récit, ou à sa structure ?
J’ai beaucoup joué avec la structure de l’histoire. Il y a peu de parties du livre qui ne soient dans le film, mais structurellement, tout a été beaucoup manipulé.
Pourquoi avoir choisi de recruter vos acteurs via MySpace, ce réseau communautaire sur Internet ?
Je pense que c’est ce que devraient faire toutes les agences de casting pour trouver des lycéens, surtout maintenant que MySpace est à ce point répandu. Nous avons fait comme les autres, en essayant simplement de trouver les moyens de convaincre des amateurs de jouer dans le film.
Pourquoi avoir choisi de tourner à la fois en super-8 et en 35 mm ?
Parce que le support du film de skate est le super-8, et aussi la vidéo, et comme nous en utilisions un peu dans notre film, nous avons tourné quelques séquences supplémentaires de skate en super-8. Il est beaucoup plus difficile de tenir une caméra plus grande en se tenant sur une planche, c’est une des raisons. De plus le 35 mm est trop cher pour que les filmeurs de skate l’utilisent. Ensuite, le reste du film est tourné en 35 mm, le meilleur support selon moi.
Vos trois derniers films – Gerry, Elephant et Last Days – reposaient beaucoup sur des cadres et un découpage stables. Votre choix de confier l’image à Chris Doyle est d’autant plus surprenant…
Oui c’est vrai, Chris est connu pour sa cinématographie aérienne et très libre, et non pour ce que l'on pourrait appeler des cadres « stables ». Mais je crois que cela vient surtout de la période Wong Kar-Wai des années 90. Quand il a tourné pour la première fois avec Wong Kar-Wai , les cadres étaient tout à fait stables, mais ils se sont lâchés à mesure que les films devenaient moins conservateurs. J'ai vraiment essayé de pousser Chris dans un territoire instable, un territoire « grand angle », aussi à cause des derniers films de Wong Kar-Wai que j'avais vus, en particulier Les Anges déchus. Mais Chris était un peu circonspect. Nous avons ici autre chose, parfois instable dans l’utilisation du trépied et d’une caméra portable. Il y a beaucoup de styles différents dans le film. Beaucoup de ralentis, ce que j'ai encouragé aussi, inspirés par les derniers films de Wong Kar-Wai. Mais Chris a aussi fait La Jeune fille de l'eau, aux cadres très stables. Le monde du skate n'est cependant pas réputé pour ce genre de cadre, c'est un monde sur roues
Il y a manifestement un travail important sur le son. J’ai entendu dire que certaines séquences, notamment en super-8, étaient plus longues à l’origine. Le travail de post-production a-t-il été particulièrement long et intensif ?
Non, je crois que les séquences en super 8 sont restées pratiquement les mêmes. Peut-être y en avait-il au départ un peu plus. Le son, aussi détaillé qu’il puisse paraître, est surtout fait de paysages sonores, c’est l’œuvre de compositeurs. Le travail que nous avons fait dans la manipulation du son est plutôt simple, mais les paysages sonores, surtout ceux d’Ethan Rose, sont assez compliqués. C’est parfois comme si nous mettions des disques tout le long du film – mais des disques de musique peu traditionnelle. La post-production n’a duré que deux ou trois semaines.
Entretien réalisé par Antoine Thirion (extrait du Dossier de Presse).
Christopher Doyle
I wanted to ask you first about your early history. Since leaving Australia to be a merchant marine, you spent time living in Amsterdam, Israel, and India. After a brief sojourn in Hong Kong, you ended up in Taiwan, where you got involved with theater and then filmmaking in the early ’80s, right?
Yes, between 1978 and 1980. It was this transition, and people were coming back and going into civil service, so the [Taiwanese] government was changing and there was support for the arts. We had a bit of government money for our theater group. We started making films that reflected that [change]. And I didn’t even have a visa at that time. I was illegal for six years. I couldn’t officially enter these competitions for award money – I thought the point was making the film, not getting the award. But I was getting awards! And the problem was that I had to use a friend’s name, but I would forget whose name it was. So, this became quite notorious. Over a couple of years they had these competitions every six months and all these films were getting made but nobody would turn up to take the prize. By that time I was invited to join what was then the news department of China Television, and we started to do the Taiwanese "60 Minutes." There was one segment from the American show, and we would create the rest. From that we went on to do this thing that, officially, was propaganda. Every Wednesday at 9:30 on all three channels – they only had three – they showed the same show. We made a film, a documentary, which we called "Traveling Images." Basically, it was going around Taiwan and just filming what we liked to film. It was very poetic; very music-based. We’d do very esoteric stuff. One week we would just do mountains, a whole thing about mountains, or the sea. So, that was my film school, basically. We did that for about a year, and it became extremely popular. I mean, I met the president three times.
I had the most wonderful experience once, when I walked into the Bank of America. At that time, not many people knew that I wasn’t yellow [Doyle was using his Chinese name in the show’s credits]. I was more behind-the-scenes, but our show was known and I had been in the papers a few times because of it. So, I walked into the bank and this girl asked if I was Du Kefeng. I said, "Why?" and she said, "Thank you for making me realize how beautiful my country is." So, I thought, that’s it, I can get run over by a bus, I’ve done something of value. Because of the show and because of our friendship – I’d interviewed him about 10 times by then – Edward [Yang] asked me to do That Day on the Beach.
It was a studio film, but they supported me even though I’d never shot a film before, and somehow it worked. The first day of rushes was the most terrifying thing. I was sweating like crazy because I had no idea if there was going to be anything on the screen. It really is a miracle that light goes in and image comes out.
Is your process still so intuitive?
Yes. After I’ve seen the first rushes, I never want to see rushes again anymore. I told Gus [Van Sant], "Gus, I don’t want to see rushes. I know what we did." I don’t know how these cinematographers do it, getting up at five in the morning. A lot of cinematographers in America – I guess it’s a different mentality – are scared for their jobs. They’re terrified because it is a system where there’s a lot of unnecessary participation by people who don’t know what the fuck they’re looking at, so they’re all scared that this will get out from under their control. Whereas, my way has always been to put whatever you want to do on the negative or put it into the camera, and if you have reasonably competent people, it will come out that way.
So, back to That Day on the Beach: it got international acclaim and prizes, and I thought, shit, it’s my first film. I don’t know what I’m doing basically. Maybe I should go and learn. I was fortunate enough at that time to have a French-Chinese girlfriend who was going home. So, I went back to Paris with her and lived there for the next six years. I did one film there, Noir et Blanc, a student film [directed by Claire Devers] that also won the Camera d’Or that year [1986] in Cannes. Then I was on ’Round Midnight – just as an observer, an assistant, kind of an intern. I wanted to see how films were made in France, and it was a horrible experience because they’re such snobs. It took me two-and-a-half hours to get to the studio every day, and even if it was raining no one would give me a lift to the metro. I figured, this isn’t for me. And by that time, I was doing a film a year in Asia. So, up until 1991, when we [Doyle and Wong Kar-Wai] shot Days of Being Wild, I was commuting between Paris and Hong Kong. And, my wife said, "Why don’t you stay there, because I’m getting sick of all this coming and going?" And that’s what happened. So, Wong Kar-Wai destroyed my marriage!
Convenient to have someone else to blame, isn’t it?
Yeah, I wish it was true. Actually, it was the best thing we did, because she did the costumes for my film. We’re much closer now that we’re divorced. We love each other too much to live together.
There’s a perception that you and Wong Kar-Wai have a more collaborative relationship than you have with other directors, is that really the case?
Yeah, we talk less. I never see him socially. I just arrive and we work. But I think in any relationship, whether it’s creative or romantic or sexual, the building of trust is the first step. I think the same thing’s happened with Gus or even especially with Barry Levinson on Liberty Heights because he didn’t know who I am, basically. I met him for five minutes, and we decided to work together.
I think that we have worked on stuff that has a certain resonance for us and for other people. And that kind of cements the relationship. And William, too. We never discuss the set. We go look at locations and we never say anything; we just feel if it’s going to work. It’s extremely intuitive. That’s why we don’t have scripts. We don’t need them, basically. We’re looking for the film all the time. The most that he [Wong] does is play some music and say, "I think we should go with this." And then he says, "Don’t you think the avenue would look really good like this?" But we’re talking about music, we’re not talking about some reference like you would if you go for a so-called creative meeting with a commercial filmmaker. We don’t have tear sheets of what the film should look like.
Is that where the playing with speed, I mean the speed at which you film things, comes from?
What I usually say is that music is the most advanced form of art because it’s abstract and yet it evokes emotions. That’s what we, consciously or unconsciously, are going for I’m always jealous of musicians just being able to jam. Unfortunately, we can’t. But I think we’re getting close. Usually the paraphernalia, the technical aspects and the egos, and the monetary constraints of filmmaking make it more like staging an opera than a jam session.
How has working on low budget Asian films affected your thinking when it comes to the Hollywood projects?
Because of economic constraints [in Hong Kong and Taiwan], we can’t afford to "fix it in post." We’ve never said that because we know we won’t have the money then. What we really believe, and I think it’s an aesthetic choice too, is to put as much as possible into the negative. I think that those choices are created by all the factors that govern any filmmaker, which are economic choices. What do I use, Agfa or Fuji? It’s not just an aesthetic choice. It is partly that it’s going to come in 30 percent cheaper. In the States they were shocked when I used Fuji for Psycho. I regard production ethics as very basic to the style of the film. So, when I look at a location or we think about how we’re going to make the film, I do consider how much it’s going to cost. I do consider if we can or cannot have certain equipment. And that is the positive aspect of working both in Asia and with non-Asian filmmakers for me. You get a chance to play with the toys so you can recognize their value, but you don’t take them for granted because you have to go back to the economies of our scale, where you can’t go over a couple of million dollars because you’ll never get it back in box office.
I don’t get the sense that you’re planning to quit being a cinematographer and focus all your energies on directing.
To me [directing] was just changing chairs. But, my personality and my interests suit me incredibly well to being a cinematographer. I’m not a great storyteller and I’m not a logical thinker. I’m not disciplined in the way that I could sit in front of an editing console for hours and hours and make minute decisions about how to adjust things. That’s just not my personality. I’m a bit eclectic. I run around and make a fool of myself, and I can give a director a lot more than he expected. Therefore, [cinematography] is a wonderful job for me. I can think on my feet. I like to move, so I can get the exercise I need by hand-holding the camera. I can dance with the actors – and with the actresses, also. I’d be a fool not to do it. In making my own film, I had to turn down Bertolucci and Peter Greenaway. So, I don’t think I want to do that too often because I don’t think what I’ve got to say is that important. It’s a pleasure to have something to say, and I will continue to make films as a director, but my priority is still cinematography. I am a little bit over the top most of the time, so I figure if you’re not ready for that, you’re going to be in deep shit. You’re either going to have to fire me, or sedate me, or something.
Yes, between 1978 and 1980. It was this transition, and people were coming back and going into civil service, so the [Taiwanese] government was changing and there was support for the arts. We had a bit of government money for our theater group. We started making films that reflected that [change]. And I didn’t even have a visa at that time. I was illegal for six years. I couldn’t officially enter these competitions for award money – I thought the point was making the film, not getting the award. But I was getting awards! And the problem was that I had to use a friend’s name, but I would forget whose name it was. So, this became quite notorious. Over a couple of years they had these competitions every six months and all these films were getting made but nobody would turn up to take the prize. By that time I was invited to join what was then the news department of China Television, and we started to do the Taiwanese "60 Minutes." There was one segment from the American show, and we would create the rest. From that we went on to do this thing that, officially, was propaganda. Every Wednesday at 9:30 on all three channels – they only had three – they showed the same show. We made a film, a documentary, which we called "Traveling Images." Basically, it was going around Taiwan and just filming what we liked to film. It was very poetic; very music-based. We’d do very esoteric stuff. One week we would just do mountains, a whole thing about mountains, or the sea. So, that was my film school, basically. We did that for about a year, and it became extremely popular. I mean, I met the president three times.
I had the most wonderful experience once, when I walked into the Bank of America. At that time, not many people knew that I wasn’t yellow [Doyle was using his Chinese name in the show’s credits]. I was more behind-the-scenes, but our show was known and I had been in the papers a few times because of it. So, I walked into the bank and this girl asked if I was Du Kefeng. I said, "Why?" and she said, "Thank you for making me realize how beautiful my country is." So, I thought, that’s it, I can get run over by a bus, I’ve done something of value. Because of the show and because of our friendship – I’d interviewed him about 10 times by then – Edward [Yang] asked me to do That Day on the Beach.
It was a studio film, but they supported me even though I’d never shot a film before, and somehow it worked. The first day of rushes was the most terrifying thing. I was sweating like crazy because I had no idea if there was going to be anything on the screen. It really is a miracle that light goes in and image comes out.
Is your process still so intuitive?
Yes. After I’ve seen the first rushes, I never want to see rushes again anymore. I told Gus [Van Sant], "Gus, I don’t want to see rushes. I know what we did." I don’t know how these cinematographers do it, getting up at five in the morning. A lot of cinematographers in America – I guess it’s a different mentality – are scared for their jobs. They’re terrified because it is a system where there’s a lot of unnecessary participation by people who don’t know what the fuck they’re looking at, so they’re all scared that this will get out from under their control. Whereas, my way has always been to put whatever you want to do on the negative or put it into the camera, and if you have reasonably competent people, it will come out that way.
So, back to That Day on the Beach: it got international acclaim and prizes, and I thought, shit, it’s my first film. I don’t know what I’m doing basically. Maybe I should go and learn. I was fortunate enough at that time to have a French-Chinese girlfriend who was going home. So, I went back to Paris with her and lived there for the next six years. I did one film there, Noir et Blanc, a student film [directed by Claire Devers] that also won the Camera d’Or that year [1986] in Cannes. Then I was on ’Round Midnight – just as an observer, an assistant, kind of an intern. I wanted to see how films were made in France, and it was a horrible experience because they’re such snobs. It took me two-and-a-half hours to get to the studio every day, and even if it was raining no one would give me a lift to the metro. I figured, this isn’t for me. And by that time, I was doing a film a year in Asia. So, up until 1991, when we [Doyle and Wong Kar-Wai] shot Days of Being Wild, I was commuting between Paris and Hong Kong. And, my wife said, "Why don’t you stay there, because I’m getting sick of all this coming and going?" And that’s what happened. So, Wong Kar-Wai destroyed my marriage!
Convenient to have someone else to blame, isn’t it?
Yeah, I wish it was true. Actually, it was the best thing we did, because she did the costumes for my film. We’re much closer now that we’re divorced. We love each other too much to live together.
There’s a perception that you and Wong Kar-Wai have a more collaborative relationship than you have with other directors, is that really the case?
Yeah, we talk less. I never see him socially. I just arrive and we work. But I think in any relationship, whether it’s creative or romantic or sexual, the building of trust is the first step. I think the same thing’s happened with Gus or even especially with Barry Levinson on Liberty Heights because he didn’t know who I am, basically. I met him for five minutes, and we decided to work together.
I think that we have worked on stuff that has a certain resonance for us and for other people. And that kind of cements the relationship. And William, too. We never discuss the set. We go look at locations and we never say anything; we just feel if it’s going to work. It’s extremely intuitive. That’s why we don’t have scripts. We don’t need them, basically. We’re looking for the film all the time. The most that he [Wong] does is play some music and say, "I think we should go with this." And then he says, "Don’t you think the avenue would look really good like this?" But we’re talking about music, we’re not talking about some reference like you would if you go for a so-called creative meeting with a commercial filmmaker. We don’t have tear sheets of what the film should look like.
Is that where the playing with speed, I mean the speed at which you film things, comes from?
What I usually say is that music is the most advanced form of art because it’s abstract and yet it evokes emotions. That’s what we, consciously or unconsciously, are going for I’m always jealous of musicians just being able to jam. Unfortunately, we can’t. But I think we’re getting close. Usually the paraphernalia, the technical aspects and the egos, and the monetary constraints of filmmaking make it more like staging an opera than a jam session.
How has working on low budget Asian films affected your thinking when it comes to the Hollywood projects?
Because of economic constraints [in Hong Kong and Taiwan], we can’t afford to "fix it in post." We’ve never said that because we know we won’t have the money then. What we really believe, and I think it’s an aesthetic choice too, is to put as much as possible into the negative. I think that those choices are created by all the factors that govern any filmmaker, which are economic choices. What do I use, Agfa or Fuji? It’s not just an aesthetic choice. It is partly that it’s going to come in 30 percent cheaper. In the States they were shocked when I used Fuji for Psycho. I regard production ethics as very basic to the style of the film. So, when I look at a location or we think about how we’re going to make the film, I do consider how much it’s going to cost. I do consider if we can or cannot have certain equipment. And that is the positive aspect of working both in Asia and with non-Asian filmmakers for me. You get a chance to play with the toys so you can recognize their value, but you don’t take them for granted because you have to go back to the economies of our scale, where you can’t go over a couple of million dollars because you’ll never get it back in box office.
I don’t get the sense that you’re planning to quit being a cinematographer and focus all your energies on directing.
To me [directing] was just changing chairs. But, my personality and my interests suit me incredibly well to being a cinematographer. I’m not a great storyteller and I’m not a logical thinker. I’m not disciplined in the way that I could sit in front of an editing console for hours and hours and make minute decisions about how to adjust things. That’s just not my personality. I’m a bit eclectic. I run around and make a fool of myself, and I can give a director a lot more than he expected. Therefore, [cinematography] is a wonderful job for me. I can think on my feet. I like to move, so I can get the exercise I need by hand-holding the camera. I can dance with the actors – and with the actresses, also. I’d be a fool not to do it. In making my own film, I had to turn down Bertolucci and Peter Greenaway. So, I don’t think I want to do that too often because I don’t think what I’ve got to say is that important. It’s a pleasure to have something to say, and I will continue to make films as a director, but my priority is still cinematography. I am a little bit over the top most of the time, so I figure if you’re not ready for that, you’re going to be in deep shit. You’re either going to have to fire me, or sedate me, or something.
Entretien avec Augusta Palmer pour Filmmaker, trouvé ici
dimanche 9 mai 2010
王家衛 Wong Kar Wai
indieWIRE: How did you conceive of the story?
Wong Kar-wai: We started the film in a different way. At first, we called the film “A story about food.” The story of In the Mood for Love, in fact, is actually one of the stories about these two people, neighbors, who are buying noodles all the time. Later on, I realized that the reason I wanted to make this project is only this story, so I expanded it. It was supposed to be a quick lunch and then it became a big feast.
iW: Much of this film was sort of constructed along the way. Did you build the film more in the editing room compared to your other films?
Wong: At the beginning, I thought this is an easy film, because we had two characters and the whole film is about these two persons, and then I realized it was much more difficult than my previous films with 10 characters, because we had to put a lot of details in it. We shot the film [following the characters from] 1962 to 1972 and in the editing room, I think the film stopped at 1966, which is the film you see now.
iW: Lots of things were left out?
Wong: Maybe some days later, we will have another version.
iW: Why Hong Kong in the early 60s?
Wong: I always wanted to make a film about this period, because it’s very special in the history of Hong Kong, because it is right after 1949 and a lot of people from China are living in Hong Kong and they still have their dreams about their lives back in China. So like the Chinese communities in the film, there are people from Shanghai and they have their own languages and they don’t have contact with the local Cantonese. And they have their own movies and music and rituals. That is a very special period and I’m from that background. And I want to make a film like this, and I want to recreate that mood.
iW: Why the title, “In the Mood for Love”?
Wong: I always wanted to call this film, “Secrets” or something about secrets, and Cannes said, “No, there’s already so many films with Secrets.” So we had to find a title. We were listening to the music of Bryan Ferry, called In the Mood for Love, so we call it In the Mood for Love, why not? Actually, the mood of the film is what drives these two people together.
iW: Regarding the mood, what about the Latin influence? The suffering seems more Latin than Asian. Does that come at all from your shooting in South America on Happy Together?
Wong: I like Latin American literature a lot and I’ve always thought Latin American, and Italian people are very close to Chinese, especially the women—jealousies, passion, family values, it’s very close. The Latin music in the film was very popular in Hong Kong at that time. The music scene in HK was mainly from the Filipino musicians. All the nightclubs had Filipino musicians, so they have the Latin influences. It’s very popular in restaurants at that time. So I decided to put this music in the film to capture—this is the sound of that period. And also, I especially liked Nat King Cole, because he’s the favorite singer of my mother.
iW: You’re most known for your free-wheeling style in Chungking Express and Fallen Angels. Here, it’s quite the opposite. Did you feel restricted? Or did you feel liberated because you were trying something new?
Wong: We get used to certain types of style, and people say this is your label or your trademark. And we get used to it. It becomes very boring. We tried to do something else. For this film, because Chris Doyle is away shooting, we used another cameraman, that means I cannot be so lazy as before. Because in the past, I can rely on Chris for lighting and frame. But this time I had to control everything myself. This is a process where I can control more of the film and the style of the film is more attached to the content.
iW: Can you talk about the art direction? And all those gorgeous floral prints?
Wong: I have a very good art director, William Chang; he’s worked with me since my first film. Basically, we are from the same background, so he knows everything by heart. We seldom discuss the film, because the way we work together is very organic. He’s not serving me; he’s trying to create his own ideas. I capture all of it in the film. He’s also the editor of the film. So sometimes he cuts the things he doesn’t like.
iW: You also have many things obstructing the camera? It creates a sort of claustrophobic space.
Wong: We always wanted something in front of the camera, because we wanted to create a feeling that the audience becomes one of the neighbors. They always observe these two people.
iW: The costume design is also very important. Maggie changes constantly.
Wong: In fact, we had 20-25 dresses for Maggie for the whole film. Because we cut the film short, it becomes like a fashion show; she changes all the time. My purpose at first was to try to show the film in a repetitious way. Like, we repeat the music, the angle of a location, always the clock, always the corridor, always the staircase. Because I want to show nothing changes, except the emotions of these two persons.
iW: What do you think about the arrival of Asian cinema in the U.S. lately? Do you think it’s a rebirth or just western audience finally discovering what was already there?
Wong: We all need stories. What happens in our daily lives changes our stories. You can see the Italian cinema and the French new wave, in the 60s, the first generation after the second world war, so they have a lot of things to say and a new perspective. For these two years, Asian cinema, like Korean cinema, and even Thai cinema, they’ve become very, very strong, because they have their problems and new stories in their life. So they are not repeating the same old stories. I think the young filmmakers, their thinking is more global, so their films are more accessible to the Western audience.
iW: You’ve spoken about your influences, Antonioni, Godard, Truffaut? Did they help form your style?
Wong: In Hong Kong in the ‘60s, going to cinema was a big thing. We have cinemas for Hollywood films, local productions, European cinema, but there was no [label of] art film at that time. Even Fellini was treated as a commercial film. So as a kid, I spent a lot of time with my mother in the cinemas. And we didn’t know which is an art film, which is a commercial film; we just liked to watch the cinema. At that time, we went to cinemas because of the film itself. As far as influences, we like what we see. And the sensations just stay.
iW: You are that person to a lot of young filmmakers out there; what do you say to them?
Wong: It’s about patience. You have to be very patient. You have to wait.
iW: Can you talk about your next film, 2046?
Wong: The film is about promise. In 1997, China’s government promised 50 years of change. And I think, well, I should make a film about promises. Have things really changed in 50 years? So the film is set in the year 2046; it is a futuristic film, but it’s not a science fiction film. It’s not like “The 5th Element.” It has three stories, and each one is adapted from a Western Opera, Madame Butterfly, Carmen, and Tanhausan.
iW: Is financing your films any easier than it was, since you know have quite a reputation.
Wong: It’s not so easy as you expect. Normally, if you want to work with European distributors, or joint-ventures, they want to have the script. And we don’t have scripts, so that’s a problem. And you have to find someone who understands your work and has confidence in you. Otherwise, it’s very difficult.
iW: This film was very difficult to make, you’ve said, and was emotionally difficult for the actors. I wanted to ask you a bigger question: is making art worth the suffering?
Wong: This is a good question we keep asking ourselves. Because when you’re making a film, there’s a lot of people suffering with you, you know? You’re away from home, and you always think things are waiting for you, but it’s not, they keep going. And for In the Mood for Love, it’s the most difficult film of my career, because we made this film for almost two years, and during the production, we had the Asian economic crisis, so we had to stop production, because the investors all had problems and we had to find new investors. We kept working on it and we knew we could make this film forever, because we fell in love with it. And so, we decided to put the film into Cannes, because that meant a deadline for the film.
Entretien avec Anthony Kaufman, réalisée le 2 février 2001 trouvée ici.
Wong Kar-wai: We started the film in a different way. At first, we called the film “A story about food.” The story of In the Mood for Love, in fact, is actually one of the stories about these two people, neighbors, who are buying noodles all the time. Later on, I realized that the reason I wanted to make this project is only this story, so I expanded it. It was supposed to be a quick lunch and then it became a big feast.
iW: Much of this film was sort of constructed along the way. Did you build the film more in the editing room compared to your other films?
Wong: At the beginning, I thought this is an easy film, because we had two characters and the whole film is about these two persons, and then I realized it was much more difficult than my previous films with 10 characters, because we had to put a lot of details in it. We shot the film [following the characters from] 1962 to 1972 and in the editing room, I think the film stopped at 1966, which is the film you see now.
iW: Lots of things were left out?
Wong: Maybe some days later, we will have another version.
iW: Why Hong Kong in the early 60s?
Wong: I always wanted to make a film about this period, because it’s very special in the history of Hong Kong, because it is right after 1949 and a lot of people from China are living in Hong Kong and they still have their dreams about their lives back in China. So like the Chinese communities in the film, there are people from Shanghai and they have their own languages and they don’t have contact with the local Cantonese. And they have their own movies and music and rituals. That is a very special period and I’m from that background. And I want to make a film like this, and I want to recreate that mood.
iW: Why the title, “In the Mood for Love”?
Wong: I always wanted to call this film, “Secrets” or something about secrets, and Cannes said, “No, there’s already so many films with Secrets.” So we had to find a title. We were listening to the music of Bryan Ferry, called In the Mood for Love, so we call it In the Mood for Love, why not? Actually, the mood of the film is what drives these two people together.
iW: Regarding the mood, what about the Latin influence? The suffering seems more Latin than Asian. Does that come at all from your shooting in South America on Happy Together?
Wong: I like Latin American literature a lot and I’ve always thought Latin American, and Italian people are very close to Chinese, especially the women—jealousies, passion, family values, it’s very close. The Latin music in the film was very popular in Hong Kong at that time. The music scene in HK was mainly from the Filipino musicians. All the nightclubs had Filipino musicians, so they have the Latin influences. It’s very popular in restaurants at that time. So I decided to put this music in the film to capture—this is the sound of that period. And also, I especially liked Nat King Cole, because he’s the favorite singer of my mother.
iW: You’re most known for your free-wheeling style in Chungking Express and Fallen Angels. Here, it’s quite the opposite. Did you feel restricted? Or did you feel liberated because you were trying something new?
Wong: We get used to certain types of style, and people say this is your label or your trademark. And we get used to it. It becomes very boring. We tried to do something else. For this film, because Chris Doyle is away shooting, we used another cameraman, that means I cannot be so lazy as before. Because in the past, I can rely on Chris for lighting and frame. But this time I had to control everything myself. This is a process where I can control more of the film and the style of the film is more attached to the content.
iW: Can you talk about the art direction? And all those gorgeous floral prints?
Wong: I have a very good art director, William Chang; he’s worked with me since my first film. Basically, we are from the same background, so he knows everything by heart. We seldom discuss the film, because the way we work together is very organic. He’s not serving me; he’s trying to create his own ideas. I capture all of it in the film. He’s also the editor of the film. So sometimes he cuts the things he doesn’t like.
iW: You also have many things obstructing the camera? It creates a sort of claustrophobic space.
Wong: We always wanted something in front of the camera, because we wanted to create a feeling that the audience becomes one of the neighbors. They always observe these two people.
iW: The costume design is also very important. Maggie changes constantly.
Wong: In fact, we had 20-25 dresses for Maggie for the whole film. Because we cut the film short, it becomes like a fashion show; she changes all the time. My purpose at first was to try to show the film in a repetitious way. Like, we repeat the music, the angle of a location, always the clock, always the corridor, always the staircase. Because I want to show nothing changes, except the emotions of these two persons.
iW: What do you think about the arrival of Asian cinema in the U.S. lately? Do you think it’s a rebirth or just western audience finally discovering what was already there?
Wong: We all need stories. What happens in our daily lives changes our stories. You can see the Italian cinema and the French new wave, in the 60s, the first generation after the second world war, so they have a lot of things to say and a new perspective. For these two years, Asian cinema, like Korean cinema, and even Thai cinema, they’ve become very, very strong, because they have their problems and new stories in their life. So they are not repeating the same old stories. I think the young filmmakers, their thinking is more global, so their films are more accessible to the Western audience.
iW: You’ve spoken about your influences, Antonioni, Godard, Truffaut? Did they help form your style?
Wong: In Hong Kong in the ‘60s, going to cinema was a big thing. We have cinemas for Hollywood films, local productions, European cinema, but there was no [label of] art film at that time. Even Fellini was treated as a commercial film. So as a kid, I spent a lot of time with my mother in the cinemas. And we didn’t know which is an art film, which is a commercial film; we just liked to watch the cinema. At that time, we went to cinemas because of the film itself. As far as influences, we like what we see. And the sensations just stay.
iW: You are that person to a lot of young filmmakers out there; what do you say to them?
Wong: It’s about patience. You have to be very patient. You have to wait.
iW: Can you talk about your next film, 2046?
Wong: The film is about promise. In 1997, China’s government promised 50 years of change. And I think, well, I should make a film about promises. Have things really changed in 50 years? So the film is set in the year 2046; it is a futuristic film, but it’s not a science fiction film. It’s not like “The 5th Element.” It has three stories, and each one is adapted from a Western Opera, Madame Butterfly, Carmen, and Tanhausan.
iW: Is financing your films any easier than it was, since you know have quite a reputation.
Wong: It’s not so easy as you expect. Normally, if you want to work with European distributors, or joint-ventures, they want to have the script. And we don’t have scripts, so that’s a problem. And you have to find someone who understands your work and has confidence in you. Otherwise, it’s very difficult.
iW: This film was very difficult to make, you’ve said, and was emotionally difficult for the actors. I wanted to ask you a bigger question: is making art worth the suffering?
Wong: This is a good question we keep asking ourselves. Because when you’re making a film, there’s a lot of people suffering with you, you know? You’re away from home, and you always think things are waiting for you, but it’s not, they keep going. And for In the Mood for Love, it’s the most difficult film of my career, because we made this film for almost two years, and during the production, we had the Asian economic crisis, so we had to stop production, because the investors all had problems and we had to find new investors. We kept working on it and we knew we could make this film forever, because we fell in love with it. And so, we decided to put the film into Cannes, because that meant a deadline for the film.
Entretien avec Anthony Kaufman, réalisée le 2 février 2001 trouvée ici.
李嘉欣 Michelle Reis
李嘉欣 Michelle Reis - 墮落天使 Les anges déchus 
李嘉欣 Michelle Reis - 墮落天使 Les anges déchusChristopher Doyle
You have more than twenty five year old career. Lots of cinematographic innovations that you are credited with must have a basis. What is it? Where does it come from?
There are lots of things that have to be felt and considered in order to innovate. For example colors. There is lot of theory regarding choosing a color scheme. Storaro1 (Vittorio Storaro) claims that green is the color of wisdom, of knowledge. Now why does he say it? Is it going to be applicable today also? Times have changed. Haven't they? This Storaro theory can mislead many people (points at me). It's hazardous. Follow what he says and all the films will look same. There can be no unified theory on colors. In Asia especially for countries like India and China red has a cultural significance. Does Renaissance talk about it? When we were shooting Hero there was a flashback sequence to be completed. Everybody said lets use black and white; somebody said lets use color of the skin. I suggested we use green. For me, the past is green.
How do you choose a project?
People matter for me not the script. Even if a very bad director comes to me and is full of shit even then I will work with him if I like him. It depends on where the person is coming from, value systems and so on. Every director is different. Everybody has a way of functioning. Pen-ek Ratanaruang was always telling me to go slow in the Last life in the universe. He says if you go fast then we will screw on the editing table. But that is his style. Wong Kar Wai is different. He is always asking for this and that. This cognitive, lets-have- fun approach is what we are known for. He does not care much about the result as long as we are happy with the frame and shot. When such a film comes out I can say this is my film too as there is lot of collaboration between director and cameraman in all the films that I do.
Every film that you do throws at viewers a visual surprise. Is it a conscious strategy?
I am getting old. There is not much innovation that I can do. It's very tough to do new things at this level. So there lies scope for the young people. They will redefine the way we see image, not us. Then there is the danger of repetition. You set a trend and everybody hails you but you should not continue doing it. Folks did dogma and stuff but what's new now. Move on. Make way for new things.
Is there something like a "new thing?"
Wong and I take multiple things at one time, but we're never repeating them. We shot Happy Together in South America for this only. Nothing is original. I agree. Concepts will remain same but you could give it a very different perspective. Now when you say that it means lot of collaboration and effort. Usually it has to happen between the art department people, camera, lights and choreography. When we start talking a lot of shit comes out. Everybody is saying to other and especially me "Give me something new".
People in the press conferences do not expect you to talk about film labs and film stocks.
But that is what we are supposed to do all the time. Post-production is very critical for Wong and me. The kind of work we do it is very important to make use of the same lab. I value their suggestions as our films are so improvised; there is no script at all. So the visual alternatives are decided upon the editing table or film labs.
What's your India connection?
Oh ya I was in Bihar during my travels. I used to do organic farming in a convent. ( then he gives a detailed argument for organic farming) There were some 50-60 young women and I was the only man there. So you see...
Everybody in the festival is talking about Asian film making. Is there a real divide between Asia and others in the way we make our cinema? What are the dynamics of working in China, south East Asia? What really happens on the location?
Asian film making is very different it's like the theory of charkas 2 or Zen. It's very cyclical. This is reflected in the way we tell our stories. It is not like Hollywood people who have very saleable popcorn narratives. They have terrible ideas and they sell it.
On location the stakes are very high and also the kind of people who you work with can sometimes push you very hard. For example this young girl who was doing costumes for Hero kept on testing a particular dye on her own hand. She could do it on a cloth or tell an assistant to do it. But she wanted to feel it herself. What do you do when you work with such people?
Funny things happen all the time when you are out in the sun with the camera. .I was shooting an ad campaign for Nike in Shanghai. Apart from the technical and creative crew there were these company executives who had these documents or files in their hands and kept on checking out if we were shooting what we told them. Often they would stall the shooting telling that a particular shot was not in the storyboards. Who gives a damn about storyboards if you are getting better visual possibilities on the location? I am always trying out new shots on the location. That's my job as a cinematographer. There are hundred better ways to take a shot. Who the hell were they? Will accountants teach us to make films?
You are openly critical of your work... unlike lot of other people in the industry.
That's my trick. Seriously there are lots of things that only the self knows. You have to set your own standards. I know my work I am the best judge of what I do. Rest is bullshit. There are many problems in my shot taking that only I can make out. When I look at a shot I say, "Chris you fucked up. You should have stopped rolling a second before". This kind of criticism is best and keeps you fit.
Be it the waterfall in Happy Together or Tony Lieung's apartment in Chungking express, space unravels in layers and looks very three dimensional.
Filmmaking is not a theoretical exercise. There is wind, bad weather, good weather and hell lot of other technical problems when you are shooting. It teaches you a lot of things. I really learnt my camera when I was shooting in the desert. I have shot 5 films in the desert. Desert is a crazy place to shoot. The landscape and atmosphere determines a lot of my work. Lot of times it comes before everything. For example the Hong Kong cityscape has determined our aesthetics for a number of films. Its very cramped with small stuffed apartments, shops etc.
The flat in the Chungking Express has been really well shot. In fact we had a class lecture on memory and urban claustrophobia.
That's my apartment.
You must be joking
No its where I live. Tony Leungs apartment in the film is actually where I live. Its right in the middle of Hong Kong. Everybody knows my address there. Isn't it beautiful?
Tell us more about the kind of relationship you share with Wong Kar Wai.
Wong Kar Wai has a beautiful house where we spent lot of time drinking together and then we sleep. (Laughs) jokes apart... he has a strong family and a very solid wife.
I think I have spoken many times on our style. Wong once told me, "Remember the day when we took 53 takes for a shot". This was for Days of Being Wild. The lovemaking shot... we kept taking retakes for two days until we got it. We are always thinking on the sets. That's why our films go on and on. I was supposed to shoot Crouching Tiger... but In the Mood for Love kept on going on and on. Very Asian style... that is we choose a location first then search for a story. You could say we are we are making multimillion dollar student films.
A lot of cinematographers, film students follow your work and look up to you. What is your message for them?
I will say that I am making mistakes all the time but I think about them and try to learn from them. I never thought that I will do all this but since now I am doing it I must work hard. Sometimes my assistants are left uncared as I am working on and on at a stretch. Then I would say at last that if I can do it so can you. There are lots of people trying to copy our style. But there can be only one Fallen Angels and only one Wong Kar Wai . You cannot be doing again and again what has been done before If you don't have big tits do not make them.
Notes-
1. Vittorio Storaro- Vittorio Storaro, ASC, AIC known chiefly for his work with Bernardo Bertoluucci with a vast legacy of seminal works like the Conformist, Apocalypse Now, Reds, The empire of the sun and The Little Buddha.
2. Chakras- Life seen as a continuous cycle of regeneration and decay.
This interview was recorded in 2006, when Christopher Doyle had visited India to participate in the Osian's Cinefan festival. Trouvée ici.
There are lots of things that have to be felt and considered in order to innovate. For example colors. There is lot of theory regarding choosing a color scheme. Storaro1 (Vittorio Storaro) claims that green is the color of wisdom, of knowledge. Now why does he say it? Is it going to be applicable today also? Times have changed. Haven't they? This Storaro theory can mislead many people (points at me). It's hazardous. Follow what he says and all the films will look same. There can be no unified theory on colors. In Asia especially for countries like India and China red has a cultural significance. Does Renaissance talk about it? When we were shooting Hero there was a flashback sequence to be completed. Everybody said lets use black and white; somebody said lets use color of the skin. I suggested we use green. For me, the past is green.
How do you choose a project?
People matter for me not the script. Even if a very bad director comes to me and is full of shit even then I will work with him if I like him. It depends on where the person is coming from, value systems and so on. Every director is different. Everybody has a way of functioning. Pen-ek Ratanaruang was always telling me to go slow in the Last life in the universe. He says if you go fast then we will screw on the editing table. But that is his style. Wong Kar Wai is different. He is always asking for this and that. This cognitive, lets-have- fun approach is what we are known for. He does not care much about the result as long as we are happy with the frame and shot. When such a film comes out I can say this is my film too as there is lot of collaboration between director and cameraman in all the films that I do.
Every film that you do throws at viewers a visual surprise. Is it a conscious strategy?
I am getting old. There is not much innovation that I can do. It's very tough to do new things at this level. So there lies scope for the young people. They will redefine the way we see image, not us. Then there is the danger of repetition. You set a trend and everybody hails you but you should not continue doing it. Folks did dogma and stuff but what's new now. Move on. Make way for new things.
Is there something like a "new thing?"
Wong and I take multiple things at one time, but we're never repeating them. We shot Happy Together in South America for this only. Nothing is original. I agree. Concepts will remain same but you could give it a very different perspective. Now when you say that it means lot of collaboration and effort. Usually it has to happen between the art department people, camera, lights and choreography. When we start talking a lot of shit comes out. Everybody is saying to other and especially me "Give me something new".
People in the press conferences do not expect you to talk about film labs and film stocks.
But that is what we are supposed to do all the time. Post-production is very critical for Wong and me. The kind of work we do it is very important to make use of the same lab. I value their suggestions as our films are so improvised; there is no script at all. So the visual alternatives are decided upon the editing table or film labs.
What's your India connection?
Oh ya I was in Bihar during my travels. I used to do organic farming in a convent. ( then he gives a detailed argument for organic farming) There were some 50-60 young women and I was the only man there. So you see...
Everybody in the festival is talking about Asian film making. Is there a real divide between Asia and others in the way we make our cinema? What are the dynamics of working in China, south East Asia? What really happens on the location?
Asian film making is very different it's like the theory of charkas 2 or Zen. It's very cyclical. This is reflected in the way we tell our stories. It is not like Hollywood people who have very saleable popcorn narratives. They have terrible ideas and they sell it.
On location the stakes are very high and also the kind of people who you work with can sometimes push you very hard. For example this young girl who was doing costumes for Hero kept on testing a particular dye on her own hand. She could do it on a cloth or tell an assistant to do it. But she wanted to feel it herself. What do you do when you work with such people?
Funny things happen all the time when you are out in the sun with the camera. .I was shooting an ad campaign for Nike in Shanghai. Apart from the technical and creative crew there were these company executives who had these documents or files in their hands and kept on checking out if we were shooting what we told them. Often they would stall the shooting telling that a particular shot was not in the storyboards. Who gives a damn about storyboards if you are getting better visual possibilities on the location? I am always trying out new shots on the location. That's my job as a cinematographer. There are hundred better ways to take a shot. Who the hell were they? Will accountants teach us to make films?
You are openly critical of your work... unlike lot of other people in the industry.
That's my trick. Seriously there are lots of things that only the self knows. You have to set your own standards. I know my work I am the best judge of what I do. Rest is bullshit. There are many problems in my shot taking that only I can make out. When I look at a shot I say, "Chris you fucked up. You should have stopped rolling a second before". This kind of criticism is best and keeps you fit.
Be it the waterfall in Happy Together or Tony Lieung's apartment in Chungking express, space unravels in layers and looks very three dimensional.
Filmmaking is not a theoretical exercise. There is wind, bad weather, good weather and hell lot of other technical problems when you are shooting. It teaches you a lot of things. I really learnt my camera when I was shooting in the desert. I have shot 5 films in the desert. Desert is a crazy place to shoot. The landscape and atmosphere determines a lot of my work. Lot of times it comes before everything. For example the Hong Kong cityscape has determined our aesthetics for a number of films. Its very cramped with small stuffed apartments, shops etc.
The flat in the Chungking Express has been really well shot. In fact we had a class lecture on memory and urban claustrophobia.
That's my apartment.
You must be joking
No its where I live. Tony Leungs apartment in the film is actually where I live. Its right in the middle of Hong Kong. Everybody knows my address there. Isn't it beautiful?
Tell us more about the kind of relationship you share with Wong Kar Wai.
Wong Kar Wai has a beautiful house where we spent lot of time drinking together and then we sleep. (Laughs) jokes apart... he has a strong family and a very solid wife.
I think I have spoken many times on our style. Wong once told me, "Remember the day when we took 53 takes for a shot". This was for Days of Being Wild. The lovemaking shot... we kept taking retakes for two days until we got it. We are always thinking on the sets. That's why our films go on and on. I was supposed to shoot Crouching Tiger... but In the Mood for Love kept on going on and on. Very Asian style... that is we choose a location first then search for a story. You could say we are we are making multimillion dollar student films.
A lot of cinematographers, film students follow your work and look up to you. What is your message for them?
I will say that I am making mistakes all the time but I think about them and try to learn from them. I never thought that I will do all this but since now I am doing it I must work hard. Sometimes my assistants are left uncared as I am working on and on at a stretch. Then I would say at last that if I can do it so can you. There are lots of people trying to copy our style. But there can be only one Fallen Angels and only one Wong Kar Wai . You cannot be doing again and again what has been done before If you don't have big tits do not make them.
Notes-
1. Vittorio Storaro- Vittorio Storaro, ASC, AIC known chiefly for his work with Bernardo Bertoluucci with a vast legacy of seminal works like the Conformist, Apocalypse Now, Reds, The empire of the sun and The Little Buddha.
2. Chakras- Life seen as a continuous cycle of regeneration and decay.
This interview was recorded in 2006, when Christopher Doyle had visited India to participate in the Osian's Cinefan festival. Trouvée ici.
王家衛 Wong Kar Wai
Q：你这几天在纽约做什么？
WKW：我的两部电影要在纽约电影节上映，所以我得过去看看。其中一部电影《春光乍泄》要在这个国家上映，它已经在纽约上映了，因此我们得花时间做访问。
Q：你电影的名字是《Happy Together》。它真的快乐吗？
WKW：（停顿）这个问题是指哪一方面呢？（笑）
Q：这部电影叫《Happy Together》，而电影中的角色在快乐与悲伤之间徘徊，我们想明白你所感觉的快乐是什么，还有这些角色如何达到他们的快乐。
WKW：在这部电影中，一些观众会说这个标题有点讽刺的意味，因为这是关于两个生活在一起的人最终分离的故事。但对我来说，happy together可以是两个人或者一个人和他的过去，并且我认为有时候当一个人对他自己和他的过去能平静面对的时候，就迈出了能感受幸福的关系的第一步，而且他可以和其他人一起更开放更积极地面对未来。
Q：这部电影中的角色，他们对安宁平静的向往是何种呢，他们从开始到结束在向某种意义上的平静靠近了吗？
WKW：是的，我是这样认为的，因为他们开始的时候如同被放逐者，我认为在最后则是一种回归。他回到了他的日常生活，他自己的城市，面对他周围的人群。
Q：你在阿根廷也有同样的感觉吗，如此远离香港？
WKW：是的，因为我们打算在阿根廷拍这部电影，而不是在香港拍，理由就是我们不希望在香港拍这部电影，因为人们一直一直问这部电影，是关于97回归吗？我实在痛恨这些，因为我宁可在别的什么地方去拍。但我们花了四个月，实际上，我们最后了解大家是多么的想念香港。我们都盼着回家。在拍摄中，香港97之后会发生什么我没有答案，但在影片拍摄结束的某一时刻我明白了我们至少提供了一个愿望而不是一个答案，那就是Happy Together。
Q：你能解释是什么使两个角色走到一起，他们关系的性质又是什么？
WKW：对我来说，这种关系就像飞机和机场。张国荣的角色像一架飞机，他的天性是时常游离和疏远。而梁朝伟的角色像一个飞机场。但有的时候，当飞机场拒绝再当飞机场的时候，飞机便无处着陆，此时就是关系的终极。
Q：你在纽约电影节提到：你选择同性恋题材作为电影的主题，原因之一是你觉得在香港电影中，一直以来同性恋的描写都是不够的。你对这部电影中关于同性恋的诠释满意吗？
WKW：我更愿意这样说：我对绝大多数香港电影关于同性恋的内容不满意，因为他们将这个问题异化，一定要显得和旁人不同。而对我来说，我对《春光乍泄》非常高兴，因为它没有任何不同之处。这是关于两个生活在一起的人，只是碰巧，这两个人都是男人。这个故事也可能发生在一个男人一个女人身上，或者两个女人，甚至一个男人和一课树。而且我也非常好奇，因为我已经拍摄了六部电影，前五部电影都是关于男人和女人的故事，人们从来不问“为什么你要拍男人和女人的故事”？但《春光乍泄》之后，人们一直问我“为什么你要拍两个男人的故事”，而我想，可能当人们停止问这些问题的时候，拍一部同性恋电影或者一部男人和女人的电影就再也没有任何不同了。
Q：据美国媒体的小道报道，你和迈拉蒙滚雷公司对于《重庆森林》的发行有所争执。是什么使《堕落天使》花了这么长时间才最后在美国发行，2月才会上映，为什么电影不通过迈拉蒙公司发行，而是通过Kino国际。
WKW：我认为滚雷最近两年并不太积极，因为我认为他们已经有其他的电影。也因为我觉得其他的发行人不得不花时间凑足我的两部电影：堕落天使和春光乍泄，一起上映，所以这是耗费时间的原因。
Q：在你的两部电影中，《堕落天使》和《春光乍泄》，都有出格的激情场面。你在《堕落天使》中有女人自wei的场面，而春光乍泄...那算是个介绍性的开头吗？
WKW：《堕落天使》里，我认为李嘉欣是非常安全的，她对所有的事都觉得安心，她拒绝卷入和接触，和任何人实质的肉体接触，因此她更喜欢独自享受，而非和她所爱的人有真正的性关系。而在《春光乍泄》，因为我认为我们应该尽可能直接的面对这部电影，这部影片是关于距离，所以要展示两个角色在第一个场景里他们实际上非常接近彼此，因为两人在zuo爱。而在最后他们分离在世界的两极。所以这是两部电影中两个场景的重点。
Q：在《重庆森林》，你有一个林青霞和一群印度人的画面，《春光乍泄》里有一个相同的场景是梁朝伟和一群阿根廷人呆在一起。在电影里你要通过这些非香港人揭示什么意象？
WKW：不，我认为真正重要的是，因为《重庆森林》是在香港拍的，那是重庆大厦的常见场面，重庆大厦里有两百多个小宾馆，据说每晚有来自世界各地5000多旅行者住在那栋建筑里。因此这是在重庆大厦里实际发生的事情。而在阿根廷，因为很少有中国人和阿根廷人交往，特别是在布易诺斯艾利斯，因为我认为这两个人不得不和许多阿根廷人住在一起，是那个故事的背景。
Q：但你想过对香港观众这些景象有什么意思吗？他们怎么看？
WKW：他们会把它作为故事的背景接受，而不会问为什么。这不是关于身份的疏离的问题，这只是故事的背景，而我认为这非常有趣。
Q：你发现了吗，当人们问及你的电影的时候他们常常谈及“身份”的问题
WKW：不，我觉得人们把我的电影想得非常复杂，有如此多的蒙太奇、主题和象征，但对我来说，我的电影是非常直接或者说简单的。我总是说我的电影太简单甚至不太像一部电影。
Q：但在法国杂志，你进行了很多访谈。因为你在那也非常成功，法国人描述你的电影的方式是非常复杂的。
WKW：法国人是非常复杂的人，你知道……
Q：那你怎么和他们交流呢？
WKW：我试着一直告诉他们我的电影很简单，别想得那么难。
Q：你对在戛纳获奖有什么感受？
WKW：我们非常惊讶，当然也非常高兴，因为这是香港电影在戛纳第一次获得这一奖项，同时也是97回归前的最后一次，所以对我们来说很特别。
Q：随着香港回归大陆，电影市场本身有很多变化，大陆会如何规划香港电影，会有内部或外部的压力吗？或者说几年之前就已经有了？
WKW：比如，我们打算拍《春光乍泄》并在97之前上映，因为我们不知道之后会发生什么。现在交接已经过去三个月了，我们没看见和以前有什么不同，我相信如果我们现在要在香港制作和放映电影，应该不会有问题。但是，当然，如果你要在大陆拍电影或者在大陆上映，我想是完全不可能的。我会说到目前为止香港的情况看上去还不错。
Q：大陆还没表现出什么确切的压力...
WKW：我认为这两三年这种事情不会发生，我想整个进程会非常缓慢，可能要花10－15年。我想这很明显是下一辈的事情了。
Q：你打算继续在香港拍电影吗？
WKW：当然。
Q：因为有其他的电影工作者打算去好莱坞发展...
WKW：在香港有500个电影导演，只有5-6个打算去好莱坞。不管怎样我更喜欢待在香港拍更多的电影。
Q：你了解他们去好莱坞的动机吗？
WKW：我想这非常简单，在好莱坞工作意味着有更大的明星更多的投资，为什么不呢？
Q：你提到了大明星，难道香港明星不够有名？
WKW：我认为周润发在世界范围内的名气不如约翰.屈弗塔。
Q：对亚洲人来说呢？
WKW：当然，你知道，对一些导演来说，他们愿意和美国的大明星合作，因为他们会非常非常高兴，对他们中的一些人来说好像做梦一样。你要明白，在香港我想很多电影工作者不是来自电影学校。他们从电影本身开始了解怎么自己拍摄，他们学习的对象大多数是好莱坞电影。因此，我觉得对他们来说在好莱坞工作好像一种梦想。
Q：张震在《春光乍泄》里出现，他这个在台湾饭馆工作的角色有什么意思？
WKW：一开始，我试着将电影专注于两个角色之上，梁朝伟和张国荣。然后因为和当地有点摩擦，而且在阿根廷的拍摄地点问题，所以我们不得不等了两个月。而张国荣还得回香港去因为他在电影之前已经答应了要办环球演唱会。我必须改变故事，于是这就变成了关于梁朝伟的电影，我想我需要更多的力量来平衡整个故事，所以想到了要有一个年轻人，有点像年轻版的张国荣，然后想起来了张震。因为我几年前在柏林见过他，我觉得他很像年轻时候的张国荣。所以我启用了张震加入布易诺斯艾利斯。
Q：为什么不用金城武呢？
WKW：他那时候档期有问题。
Q：张震在《春光乍泄》中扮演的角色有点像《堕落天使》里的某个角色...
WKW：金城武的？
Q：你也这么觉得？
WKW：我想对我来说他们并不相像，金城武好像一直是个孩子，他还不是一个男人或者年轻的男人，对我来说他还是一个孩子。而张震，对我来说，是一个非常年轻的男人。他不是一个孩子。
Q：梁朝伟在扮演同性恋角色的时候觉得为难吗？他怎么准备这个角色？
WKW：是的，实际上，我们第一天拍摄第一个镜头他感到非常震惊，他完全没防备，他有三天都没说话。我不得不跟他解释，如果我能让你在重庆森林里恋上三文治罐头，为什么不能让你在这部电影里和一个男人相爱呢？我想这些话起了一些作用。
Q：所以他之前不知道这部电影会有这种镜头？
WKW：他知道这部电影是关于两个男人，但他不知道，好吧，会这么直接。而且他一直觉得我是在跟他开玩笑，因为他知道我总是改剧本，所以我可能不是认真的，我只是试着让他严肃点而已。但在拍摄的第一天，他明白我是认真的而且我要两个男人的zuo爱场面，他真的有点吓住了。
Q：在亚洲同性恋还是一种错误不被认同吗？
WKW：不，我认为这不是一种错误，作为一个演员他们有很多考虑，而且这是他第一次在电影里扮演一个同性恋角色，所以他对此非常紧张。
Q：张国荣可能更能适应一些...
WKW：我想他更放松，因为他演过《霸王别姬》，我觉得对张国荣更轻松一点。
97年10月于纽约
WKW：我的两部电影要在纽约电影节上映，所以我得过去看看。其中一部电影《春光乍泄》要在这个国家上映，它已经在纽约上映了，因此我们得花时间做访问。
Q：你电影的名字是《Happy Together》。它真的快乐吗？
WKW：（停顿）这个问题是指哪一方面呢？（笑）
Q：这部电影叫《Happy Together》，而电影中的角色在快乐与悲伤之间徘徊，我们想明白你所感觉的快乐是什么，还有这些角色如何达到他们的快乐。
WKW：在这部电影中，一些观众会说这个标题有点讽刺的意味，因为这是关于两个生活在一起的人最终分离的故事。但对我来说，happy together可以是两个人或者一个人和他的过去，并且我认为有时候当一个人对他自己和他的过去能平静面对的时候，就迈出了能感受幸福的关系的第一步，而且他可以和其他人一起更开放更积极地面对未来。
Q：这部电影中的角色，他们对安宁平静的向往是何种呢，他们从开始到结束在向某种意义上的平静靠近了吗？
WKW：是的，我是这样认为的，因为他们开始的时候如同被放逐者，我认为在最后则是一种回归。他回到了他的日常生活，他自己的城市，面对他周围的人群。
Q：你在阿根廷也有同样的感觉吗，如此远离香港？
WKW：是的，因为我们打算在阿根廷拍这部电影，而不是在香港拍，理由就是我们不希望在香港拍这部电影，因为人们一直一直问这部电影，是关于97回归吗？我实在痛恨这些，因为我宁可在别的什么地方去拍。但我们花了四个月，实际上，我们最后了解大家是多么的想念香港。我们都盼着回家。在拍摄中，香港97之后会发生什么我没有答案，但在影片拍摄结束的某一时刻我明白了我们至少提供了一个愿望而不是一个答案，那就是Happy Together。
Q：你能解释是什么使两个角色走到一起，他们关系的性质又是什么？
WKW：对我来说，这种关系就像飞机和机场。张国荣的角色像一架飞机，他的天性是时常游离和疏远。而梁朝伟的角色像一个飞机场。但有的时候，当飞机场拒绝再当飞机场的时候，飞机便无处着陆，此时就是关系的终极。
Q：你在纽约电影节提到：你选择同性恋题材作为电影的主题，原因之一是你觉得在香港电影中，一直以来同性恋的描写都是不够的。你对这部电影中关于同性恋的诠释满意吗？
WKW：我更愿意这样说：我对绝大多数香港电影关于同性恋的内容不满意，因为他们将这个问题异化，一定要显得和旁人不同。而对我来说，我对《春光乍泄》非常高兴，因为它没有任何不同之处。这是关于两个生活在一起的人，只是碰巧，这两个人都是男人。这个故事也可能发生在一个男人一个女人身上，或者两个女人，甚至一个男人和一课树。而且我也非常好奇，因为我已经拍摄了六部电影，前五部电影都是关于男人和女人的故事，人们从来不问“为什么你要拍男人和女人的故事”？但《春光乍泄》之后，人们一直问我“为什么你要拍两个男人的故事”，而我想，可能当人们停止问这些问题的时候，拍一部同性恋电影或者一部男人和女人的电影就再也没有任何不同了。
Q：据美国媒体的小道报道，你和迈拉蒙滚雷公司对于《重庆森林》的发行有所争执。是什么使《堕落天使》花了这么长时间才最后在美国发行，2月才会上映，为什么电影不通过迈拉蒙公司发行，而是通过Kino国际。
WKW：我认为滚雷最近两年并不太积极，因为我认为他们已经有其他的电影。也因为我觉得其他的发行人不得不花时间凑足我的两部电影：堕落天使和春光乍泄，一起上映，所以这是耗费时间的原因。
Q：在你的两部电影中，《堕落天使》和《春光乍泄》，都有出格的激情场面。你在《堕落天使》中有女人自wei的场面，而春光乍泄...那算是个介绍性的开头吗？
WKW：《堕落天使》里，我认为李嘉欣是非常安全的，她对所有的事都觉得安心，她拒绝卷入和接触，和任何人实质的肉体接触，因此她更喜欢独自享受，而非和她所爱的人有真正的性关系。而在《春光乍泄》，因为我认为我们应该尽可能直接的面对这部电影，这部影片是关于距离，所以要展示两个角色在第一个场景里他们实际上非常接近彼此，因为两人在zuo爱。而在最后他们分离在世界的两极。所以这是两部电影中两个场景的重点。
Q：在《重庆森林》，你有一个林青霞和一群印度人的画面，《春光乍泄》里有一个相同的场景是梁朝伟和一群阿根廷人呆在一起。在电影里你要通过这些非香港人揭示什么意象？
WKW：不，我认为真正重要的是，因为《重庆森林》是在香港拍的，那是重庆大厦的常见场面，重庆大厦里有两百多个小宾馆，据说每晚有来自世界各地5000多旅行者住在那栋建筑里。因此这是在重庆大厦里实际发生的事情。而在阿根廷，因为很少有中国人和阿根廷人交往，特别是在布易诺斯艾利斯，因为我认为这两个人不得不和许多阿根廷人住在一起，是那个故事的背景。
Q：但你想过对香港观众这些景象有什么意思吗？他们怎么看？
WKW：他们会把它作为故事的背景接受，而不会问为什么。这不是关于身份的疏离的问题，这只是故事的背景，而我认为这非常有趣。
Q：你发现了吗，当人们问及你的电影的时候他们常常谈及“身份”的问题
WKW：不，我觉得人们把我的电影想得非常复杂，有如此多的蒙太奇、主题和象征，但对我来说，我的电影是非常直接或者说简单的。我总是说我的电影太简单甚至不太像一部电影。
Q：但在法国杂志，你进行了很多访谈。因为你在那也非常成功，法国人描述你的电影的方式是非常复杂的。
WKW：法国人是非常复杂的人，你知道……
Q：那你怎么和他们交流呢？
WKW：我试着一直告诉他们我的电影很简单，别想得那么难。
Q：你对在戛纳获奖有什么感受？
WKW：我们非常惊讶，当然也非常高兴，因为这是香港电影在戛纳第一次获得这一奖项，同时也是97回归前的最后一次，所以对我们来说很特别。
Q：随着香港回归大陆，电影市场本身有很多变化，大陆会如何规划香港电影，会有内部或外部的压力吗？或者说几年之前就已经有了？
WKW：比如，我们打算拍《春光乍泄》并在97之前上映，因为我们不知道之后会发生什么。现在交接已经过去三个月了，我们没看见和以前有什么不同，我相信如果我们现在要在香港制作和放映电影，应该不会有问题。但是，当然，如果你要在大陆拍电影或者在大陆上映，我想是完全不可能的。我会说到目前为止香港的情况看上去还不错。
Q：大陆还没表现出什么确切的压力...
WKW：我认为这两三年这种事情不会发生，我想整个进程会非常缓慢，可能要花10－15年。我想这很明显是下一辈的事情了。
Q：你打算继续在香港拍电影吗？
WKW：当然。
Q：因为有其他的电影工作者打算去好莱坞发展...
WKW：在香港有500个电影导演，只有5-6个打算去好莱坞。不管怎样我更喜欢待在香港拍更多的电影。
Q：你了解他们去好莱坞的动机吗？
WKW：我想这非常简单，在好莱坞工作意味着有更大的明星更多的投资，为什么不呢？
Q：你提到了大明星，难道香港明星不够有名？
WKW：我认为周润发在世界范围内的名气不如约翰.屈弗塔。
Q：对亚洲人来说呢？
WKW：当然，你知道，对一些导演来说，他们愿意和美国的大明星合作，因为他们会非常非常高兴，对他们中的一些人来说好像做梦一样。你要明白，在香港我想很多电影工作者不是来自电影学校。他们从电影本身开始了解怎么自己拍摄，他们学习的对象大多数是好莱坞电影。因此，我觉得对他们来说在好莱坞工作好像一种梦想。
Q：张震在《春光乍泄》里出现，他这个在台湾饭馆工作的角色有什么意思？
WKW：一开始，我试着将电影专注于两个角色之上，梁朝伟和张国荣。然后因为和当地有点摩擦，而且在阿根廷的拍摄地点问题，所以我们不得不等了两个月。而张国荣还得回香港去因为他在电影之前已经答应了要办环球演唱会。我必须改变故事，于是这就变成了关于梁朝伟的电影，我想我需要更多的力量来平衡整个故事，所以想到了要有一个年轻人，有点像年轻版的张国荣，然后想起来了张震。因为我几年前在柏林见过他，我觉得他很像年轻时候的张国荣。所以我启用了张震加入布易诺斯艾利斯。
Q：为什么不用金城武呢？
WKW：他那时候档期有问题。
Q：张震在《春光乍泄》中扮演的角色有点像《堕落天使》里的某个角色...
WKW：金城武的？
Q：你也这么觉得？
WKW：我想对我来说他们并不相像，金城武好像一直是个孩子，他还不是一个男人或者年轻的男人，对我来说他还是一个孩子。而张震，对我来说，是一个非常年轻的男人。他不是一个孩子。
Q：梁朝伟在扮演同性恋角色的时候觉得为难吗？他怎么准备这个角色？
WKW：是的，实际上，我们第一天拍摄第一个镜头他感到非常震惊，他完全没防备，他有三天都没说话。我不得不跟他解释，如果我能让你在重庆森林里恋上三文治罐头，为什么不能让你在这部电影里和一个男人相爱呢？我想这些话起了一些作用。
Q：所以他之前不知道这部电影会有这种镜头？
WKW：他知道这部电影是关于两个男人，但他不知道，好吧，会这么直接。而且他一直觉得我是在跟他开玩笑，因为他知道我总是改剧本，所以我可能不是认真的，我只是试着让他严肃点而已。但在拍摄的第一天，他明白我是认真的而且我要两个男人的zuo爱场面，他真的有点吓住了。
Q：在亚洲同性恋还是一种错误不被认同吗？
WKW：不，我认为这不是一种错误，作为一个演员他们有很多考虑，而且这是他第一次在电影里扮演一个同性恋角色，所以他对此非常紧张。
Q：张国荣可能更能适应一些...
WKW：我想他更放松，因为他演过《霸王别姬》，我觉得对张国荣更轻松一点。
97年10月于纽约
Jessica Harper
SMB - Suspiria has grown into a film of a measurable cult status.
JH - People come up to me on the street and say, “That is my favorite movie of all time.”
SMB - It has a life of its own.
JH - Yes, it really does. It’s one of those movies that people really respond to. People I’ve met, who don’t realize I’m in it, rent it, and say, “Oh my God, you’re in that movie!”, they go on to say, “That is a great, scary movie!” But it does have a life of its own and it’s a great cult movie. It’s got a lot of fans.
SMB - Back in 77’ I guess you never would have thought that, I suppose.
JH - Well ... I guess I just didn’t think about that much back then. It was so long ago I don’t know what I thought. (Laughs) But I knew he (Argento) was a very, very, talented and popular director in Italy. But I didn’t know if it would work in the States. But here it is!
SMB - Actor Leigh McCloskey who was in Inferno, the sequel, noted that working with Argento was very unique - even the script - it was a very different experience from working with other directors.
JH - Yeah, it was very different, mostly because of the Italian Production system. It’s a very different way of shooting. Basically you’re shooting without sound.
SMB - Really?
JH - Oh, yeah. They don’t even bother to concern themselves with a good soundtrack, because they know that they’ll be dubbing everything. Actually in Suspiria there were only a couple of scenes where they used live sound. All the rest of it was dubbed. It was really strange because I’d be doing a scene and there would be hammering in the background because they were building a set over somewhere. In the States of course that would never be tolerated. Over there, it was a very (with a laugh), different thing. But remember they know they’re going to be dubbing languages for all around the world. It’s a tradition I guess.
SMB - I guess it’s a marketing thing. Knowing especially that it will have to go to the States.
JH - Yes, and several of the actors didn’t speak English. So sometimes I’d be doing a scene where I’d be speaking English and the actor I’d be working with would be speaking in either Italian or German. Ultimately no one, meaning the audience, would know that because in the end everything was dubbed.
SMB - Did you speak any other language other than English?
JH - I did, Italian.
SMB - So then you were able to communicate with Dario.
JH - We actually communicated mostly in English, but by the time I was done I was pretty fluent in Italian. So with the crew I was actually able to communicate pretty well.
SMB - So then there were times when a single scene would be done with different actors speaking different languages! That must have made it difficult to play out a scene.
JH - Yeah, it was ... unusual. I had to know exactly what was going on in that scene, obviously, or else I’d be lost. It is an unusual way of working.
SMB - Because of this arrangement was the script more descriptive or informative?
JH - I can’t remember that, but from what I do remember the film was pretty faithful to the script. But in terms of delivering a performance, the script was very explicit there.
SMB - The film isn’t supported by its dialog, it’s all visual narrative ...
JH - Yes, that’s true.
SMB - ... so how was that conveyed, and did that make things difficult or complicated for you as an actress? Argento is an extremely visual director.
JH - Well, it’s true that what’s important in that movie is going on visually. In fact
it’s also true that’s what is important in the performances as well. I had act more through expressions, more than words.
SMB - So it was akin to a “silent screen” type of acting.
JH - Yes, it was related to that because, as you stated, the impact of that film is a visual impact rather a verbal one.
SMB - Do you remember if the violence was represented in the script?
JH - Well it speaks well for the film that when I actually saw it completed that impact was greater - even though I was there when it was being made. That’s because he (Argento) is so obviously cinematically gifted.
SMB - Previous to making the film were you a fan of his, or the genre?
JH - No, not really. In fact, I don’t really like to be scared. That not an emotion I consider pleasurable. (Laughs)
SMB - Then you must have found filming it unsettling?
JH - Yeah. Oh, there was one scene in particular that was unsettling.
SMB - Was it the bat scene?
JH - The bat wasn’t so bad. I mean, I knew it was fake. But there was a scene where I had to run through a corridor and things were exploding, and glass was breaking. I really was scared! I mean, it was conceivable I was in a little bit of danger in the shooting of that scene. That situation, that possibility can happen a lot in making a film.
SMB - Where you prepared as to what would happen prior to filming? Or is Dario a method director?
JH - Oh no, he explained to me everything that was going to happen. I was also very well protected against injury - but none the less, it was still a little scary. Another scene that concerned me involved me stabbing an old witch in the neck, with a knife. I was concerned because she, the actress, did happened to be a very old women. I think, in fact, she was actually a prostitute they had found. She was like a hundred years old or something... (Both laugh.) I don’t know, but she was very old and they made her up to make her look even older. I had to go at her with this collapsible knife at her neck - that made me very uncomfortable. But I guess that helped the performance I guess.
SMB - Have you seen Inferno, the sequel?
JH - No, I haven’t actually.
SMB - The actor of that film has “fond” memories of the destruction of house in that film, just as you do. He voiced the same concerns.
JH - Oh, my God. That’s interesting. Well, it was the scariest scene in the film, because I, conceivably could have gotten hurt. But there were lots of difficult scenes. Doing the scene with the bat wasn’t because it was mechanical. Then there was the scene with the worms ...
SMB - Oh, yes, the worms!
JH - You know when they filmed it they actually used rice. But for close-ups they
used the real ones. I’ll never forget Dario Argento walking up to me on the set and opening up this little paper bag and inside was this mount of wriggling .... ugh, what ever they were. I just about vomited. (Both laugh.)
It was really disgusting. But sustaining any kind of terror, or horror, on your face, and keeping up the realism for any extended amount of time is really draining. But, that’s what you have to do.
SMB - Did Dario use any tactics to take you off guard - to surprise you?
JH - Not while the camera was rolling.
SMB - Oh, but off camera?
JH - I didn’t mean for that to sound like something happened. Dario is just an interesting person. So he would surprise you in simply the way an interesting person does. He never did anything during shooting that was weird.
SMB - With all the horror and mayhem going on in front of the cameras what positive memories do you have on the film?
JH - In terms of enjoyable, I’d have to say hanging out with Joan Bennett who was such a real movie star in the tradition of the 40s. It was very interesting to hang out with her. It was like being “back then”, because of the way she behaved. I mean that in the best sense. She was a beautiful, dignified woman. At the time I was a smoker, and she was a constant smoker. So I’d pull out a cigarette and she’d say, “Don’t let them photograph you smoking my dear.”
JH - She said it in that sort of publicity conscious way that was prevalent from
the 40’s which today is just not sort of the way you think as an actress. Then of course she had some great stories about the old days in Hollywood.
SMB - How about Alida Valli?
JH - She was very, very professional. Truthfully I don’t think she was feeling very well at that time. She had some sort of blood sugar imbalance so she would, at times, drink a tall glass of water filled with sugar - which I’m sure wasn’t the best possible medicine for whatever it was she had. But I enjoyed hanging with the crew. They were a really great group of people.
SMB - The film takes place in Germany - how much was filmed there?
JH - Well the bulk of it was filmed in Rome. We did exteriors in Germany.
SMB - How long were you in Germany?
JH - Not long. Maybe just a few weeks. But the whole shoot was about 4 months.
SMB - Was the exterior of the school in Germany?
JH - Yes, I think so.
SMB - ... and the beginning at the airport ...
JH - Yes and that incredibly beautiful interior of that swimming pool. That was in Munich. That was very, very beautiful.
JH - I think there was probably some street exteriors as well. Oh, and we also went into the forest - you, when the cab drives by the forest. That was just outside Munich.
SMB - How was in filming in Germany?
JH - Well ... ah, it was a little unpleasant because the Germans are very anti-Italian. There really was a very noticeable prejudice against Italians. Of course everyone in the crew was Italian. The experience was much better in Italy. The conditions were of course different than doing a film out in the States, but not at all pleasant.
SMB - In the film you do a little ballet. Had you any experience with dancing?
JH - Yes.
SMB - So it the part was second nature you to.
JH - Well only the dancing.
SMB - How was the project first approached to you?
JH - Through my agent, but I know Dario had seen me in Phantom of the Paradise. He (Dario) sent my agent the script so it was sort of through the usual channels.
SMB - Did you have any apprehensions doing a hard-core horror film at the time?
JH - Yeah, I did have some thought about it. But at that time, at that age I also didn’t think about making really careful career decisions. My agent thought it was a really good idea and I knew Dario was a really good director so I knew he was bound to make something interesting. I remember thinking it could turn out to be something really cool. You know, I was offered a part in Annie Hall at the same time.
SMB - But Suspiria turned out to be more of an International role.
JH - Yeah, true, and the part in Annie Hall wasn’t that big either.
SMB - Did the subject matter of occult and black magic concern you?
JH - No, it didn’t concern me. In fact I thought it was kind of intriguing. Plus the film doesn’t go into it in any great depth. The witchcraft element is more of a device to provide an atmosphere. The movie really does have an amazing overall atmosphere.
SMB - Did Dario do anything on the set to aid you in creating a mood?
JH - He had played to me music by that group ...
SMB - Goblin!
JH - Yes. Remember, I wasn’t informed with his work really so I couldn’t put the pieces together in my mind. He’s the kind of director, like a lot of the best directors, it’s all on the page, of the script, but it’s only a skeleton compared to what is latter seen on screen.
JH - With Dario, the final product is made up more of what he shoots, not what’s on the page. It’s such a great leap forward from the page to the final product. He so good at pulling together all this seemingly, unrelated elements and making them work.
SMB - But that must make your job as an actress that much more difficult?
JH - But with a good director it’s always that way. The best director should enhance the script to the point to where it’s beyond your imagination. That’s what it’s all about - expressing cinematic skill. It should take the words way beyond what they are. Working with Woody Allen you read the script, it’s funny and charming and all that, and it stays that way even after you see it. But you get someone like Dario or Gordon Willis and it becomes something you’ve never imagined. They do something magical that is only in their minds. Brian Depalma is another one. It’s just the way they shoot, it lifts the material to another level. And that’s the way it should be.
Conducted by Scott Michael Bosco on 9/13/00
JH - People come up to me on the street and say, “That is my favorite movie of all time.”
SMB - It has a life of its own.
JH - Yes, it really does. It’s one of those movies that people really respond to. People I’ve met, who don’t realize I’m in it, rent it, and say, “Oh my God, you’re in that movie!”, they go on to say, “That is a great, scary movie!” But it does have a life of its own and it’s a great cult movie. It’s got a lot of fans.
SMB - Back in 77’ I guess you never would have thought that, I suppose.
JH - Well ... I guess I just didn’t think about that much back then. It was so long ago I don’t know what I thought. (Laughs) But I knew he (Argento) was a very, very, talented and popular director in Italy. But I didn’t know if it would work in the States. But here it is!
SMB - Actor Leigh McCloskey who was in Inferno, the sequel, noted that working with Argento was very unique - even the script - it was a very different experience from working with other directors.
JH - Yeah, it was very different, mostly because of the Italian Production system. It’s a very different way of shooting. Basically you’re shooting without sound.
SMB - Really?
JH - Oh, yeah. They don’t even bother to concern themselves with a good soundtrack, because they know that they’ll be dubbing everything. Actually in Suspiria there were only a couple of scenes where they used live sound. All the rest of it was dubbed. It was really strange because I’d be doing a scene and there would be hammering in the background because they were building a set over somewhere. In the States of course that would never be tolerated. Over there, it was a very (with a laugh), different thing. But remember they know they’re going to be dubbing languages for all around the world. It’s a tradition I guess.
SMB - I guess it’s a marketing thing. Knowing especially that it will have to go to the States.
JH - Yes, and several of the actors didn’t speak English. So sometimes I’d be doing a scene where I’d be speaking English and the actor I’d be working with would be speaking in either Italian or German. Ultimately no one, meaning the audience, would know that because in the end everything was dubbed.
SMB - Did you speak any other language other than English?
JH - I did, Italian.
SMB - So then you were able to communicate with Dario.
JH - We actually communicated mostly in English, but by the time I was done I was pretty fluent in Italian. So with the crew I was actually able to communicate pretty well.
SMB - So then there were times when a single scene would be done with different actors speaking different languages! That must have made it difficult to play out a scene.
JH - Yeah, it was ... unusual. I had to know exactly what was going on in that scene, obviously, or else I’d be lost. It is an unusual way of working.
SMB - Because of this arrangement was the script more descriptive or informative?
JH - I can’t remember that, but from what I do remember the film was pretty faithful to the script. But in terms of delivering a performance, the script was very explicit there.
SMB - The film isn’t supported by its dialog, it’s all visual narrative ...
JH - Yes, that’s true.
SMB - ... so how was that conveyed, and did that make things difficult or complicated for you as an actress? Argento is an extremely visual director.
JH - Well, it’s true that what’s important in that movie is going on visually. In fact
it’s also true that’s what is important in the performances as well. I had act more through expressions, more than words.
SMB - So it was akin to a “silent screen” type of acting.
JH - Yes, it was related to that because, as you stated, the impact of that film is a visual impact rather a verbal one.
SMB - Do you remember if the violence was represented in the script?
JH - Well it speaks well for the film that when I actually saw it completed that impact was greater - even though I was there when it was being made. That’s because he (Argento) is so obviously cinematically gifted.
SMB - Previous to making the film were you a fan of his, or the genre?
JH - No, not really. In fact, I don’t really like to be scared. That not an emotion I consider pleasurable. (Laughs)
SMB - Then you must have found filming it unsettling?
JH - Yeah. Oh, there was one scene in particular that was unsettling.
SMB - Was it the bat scene?
JH - The bat wasn’t so bad. I mean, I knew it was fake. But there was a scene where I had to run through a corridor and things were exploding, and glass was breaking. I really was scared! I mean, it was conceivable I was in a little bit of danger in the shooting of that scene. That situation, that possibility can happen a lot in making a film.
SMB - Where you prepared as to what would happen prior to filming? Or is Dario a method director?
JH - Oh no, he explained to me everything that was going to happen. I was also very well protected against injury - but none the less, it was still a little scary. Another scene that concerned me involved me stabbing an old witch in the neck, with a knife. I was concerned because she, the actress, did happened to be a very old women. I think, in fact, she was actually a prostitute they had found. She was like a hundred years old or something... (Both laugh.) I don’t know, but she was very old and they made her up to make her look even older. I had to go at her with this collapsible knife at her neck - that made me very uncomfortable. But I guess that helped the performance I guess.
SMB - Have you seen Inferno, the sequel?
JH - No, I haven’t actually.
SMB - The actor of that film has “fond” memories of the destruction of house in that film, just as you do. He voiced the same concerns.
JH - Oh, my God. That’s interesting. Well, it was the scariest scene in the film, because I, conceivably could have gotten hurt. But there were lots of difficult scenes. Doing the scene with the bat wasn’t because it was mechanical. Then there was the scene with the worms ...
SMB - Oh, yes, the worms!
JH - You know when they filmed it they actually used rice. But for close-ups they
used the real ones. I’ll never forget Dario Argento walking up to me on the set and opening up this little paper bag and inside was this mount of wriggling .... ugh, what ever they were. I just about vomited. (Both laugh.)
It was really disgusting. But sustaining any kind of terror, or horror, on your face, and keeping up the realism for any extended amount of time is really draining. But, that’s what you have to do.
SMB - Did Dario use any tactics to take you off guard - to surprise you?
JH - Not while the camera was rolling.
SMB - Oh, but off camera?
JH - I didn’t mean for that to sound like something happened. Dario is just an interesting person. So he would surprise you in simply the way an interesting person does. He never did anything during shooting that was weird.
SMB - With all the horror and mayhem going on in front of the cameras what positive memories do you have on the film?
JH - In terms of enjoyable, I’d have to say hanging out with Joan Bennett who was such a real movie star in the tradition of the 40s. It was very interesting to hang out with her. It was like being “back then”, because of the way she behaved. I mean that in the best sense. She was a beautiful, dignified woman. At the time I was a smoker, and she was a constant smoker. So I’d pull out a cigarette and she’d say, “Don’t let them photograph you smoking my dear.”
JH - She said it in that sort of publicity conscious way that was prevalent from
the 40’s which today is just not sort of the way you think as an actress. Then of course she had some great stories about the old days in Hollywood.
SMB - How about Alida Valli?
JH - She was very, very professional. Truthfully I don’t think she was feeling very well at that time. She had some sort of blood sugar imbalance so she would, at times, drink a tall glass of water filled with sugar - which I’m sure wasn’t the best possible medicine for whatever it was she had. But I enjoyed hanging with the crew. They were a really great group of people.
SMB - The film takes place in Germany - how much was filmed there?
JH - Well the bulk of it was filmed in Rome. We did exteriors in Germany.
SMB - How long were you in Germany?
JH - Not long. Maybe just a few weeks. But the whole shoot was about 4 months.
SMB - Was the exterior of the school in Germany?
JH - Yes, I think so.
SMB - ... and the beginning at the airport ...
JH - Yes and that incredibly beautiful interior of that swimming pool. That was in Munich. That was very, very beautiful.
JH - I think there was probably some street exteriors as well. Oh, and we also went into the forest - you, when the cab drives by the forest. That was just outside Munich.
SMB - How was in filming in Germany?
JH - Well ... ah, it was a little unpleasant because the Germans are very anti-Italian. There really was a very noticeable prejudice against Italians. Of course everyone in the crew was Italian. The experience was much better in Italy. The conditions were of course different than doing a film out in the States, but not at all pleasant.
SMB - In the film you do a little ballet. Had you any experience with dancing?
JH - Yes.
SMB - So it the part was second nature you to.
JH - Well only the dancing.
SMB - How was the project first approached to you?
JH - Through my agent, but I know Dario had seen me in Phantom of the Paradise. He (Dario) sent my agent the script so it was sort of through the usual channels.
SMB - Did you have any apprehensions doing a hard-core horror film at the time?
JH - Yeah, I did have some thought about it. But at that time, at that age I also didn’t think about making really careful career decisions. My agent thought it was a really good idea and I knew Dario was a really good director so I knew he was bound to make something interesting. I remember thinking it could turn out to be something really cool. You know, I was offered a part in Annie Hall at the same time.
SMB - But Suspiria turned out to be more of an International role.
JH - Yeah, true, and the part in Annie Hall wasn’t that big either.
SMB - Did the subject matter of occult and black magic concern you?
JH - No, it didn’t concern me. In fact I thought it was kind of intriguing. Plus the film doesn’t go into it in any great depth. The witchcraft element is more of a device to provide an atmosphere. The movie really does have an amazing overall atmosphere.
SMB - Did Dario do anything on the set to aid you in creating a mood?
JH - He had played to me music by that group ...
SMB - Goblin!
JH - Yes. Remember, I wasn’t informed with his work really so I couldn’t put the pieces together in my mind. He’s the kind of director, like a lot of the best directors, it’s all on the page, of the script, but it’s only a skeleton compared to what is latter seen on screen.
JH - With Dario, the final product is made up more of what he shoots, not what’s on the page. It’s such a great leap forward from the page to the final product. He so good at pulling together all this seemingly, unrelated elements and making them work.
SMB - But that must make your job as an actress that much more difficult?
JH - But with a good director it’s always that way. The best director should enhance the script to the point to where it’s beyond your imagination. That’s what it’s all about - expressing cinematic skill. It should take the words way beyond what they are. Working with Woody Allen you read the script, it’s funny and charming and all that, and it stays that way even after you see it. But you get someone like Dario or Gordon Willis and it becomes something you’ve never imagined. They do something magical that is only in their minds. Brian Depalma is another one. It’s just the way they shoot, it lifts the material to another level. And that’s the way it should be.
Conducted by Scott Michael Bosco on 9/13/00
Dario Argento
Comment vous est venue l'idée de Suspiria ?
J'ai l'ai écrit dans un état de transe. Ce sont mes rêves et mes fantasmes qui ont donné la matière première de l'histoire. Je voulais mélanger l'univers des contes de Disney et de Grimm avec la violence de L'Exorciste.
Croyez-vous aux sorcières ?
Edgar Poe a passé sa vie à écrire des histoires extraordinaires auxquelles il n'a jamais cru. Je me suis beaucoup intéressé au paranormal sans jamais y croire. Ce qui ne m'a pas empêché de faire trois mois de repérages en Suisse et dans la Forêt-Noire pour visiter les villages prétendument hantés par des sorcières au Moyen Age. Sur le tournage, les phénomènes inexpliqués se sont multipliés au point d'effrayer une partie de l'équipe. La caméra s'arrêtait brutalement. Certaines bobines sont revenues du laboratoire et n'étaient pas impressionnées...
Il s'agissait d'une force obscure ?
L'art est une force obscure. La peinture, et en particulier les grands tableaux, ont cette capacité de troubler le cerveau humain. Plusieurs touristes se sont jetés dans l'Arno après avoir visité la Galerie des Offices à Florence. Adolescent, je me suis perdu pendant une journée dans Athènes après avoir été choqué par la vision du Parthénon. L'art est parfois meurtrier.
Propos recueillis par Jérémie Couston en décembre 2007 trouvés ici.
J'ai l'ai écrit dans un état de transe. Ce sont mes rêves et mes fantasmes qui ont donné la matière première de l'histoire. Je voulais mélanger l'univers des contes de Disney et de Grimm avec la violence de L'Exorciste.
Croyez-vous aux sorcières ?
Edgar Poe a passé sa vie à écrire des histoires extraordinaires auxquelles il n'a jamais cru. Je me suis beaucoup intéressé au paranormal sans jamais y croire. Ce qui ne m'a pas empêché de faire trois mois de repérages en Suisse et dans la Forêt-Noire pour visiter les villages prétendument hantés par des sorcières au Moyen Age. Sur le tournage, les phénomènes inexpliqués se sont multipliés au point d'effrayer une partie de l'équipe. La caméra s'arrêtait brutalement. Certaines bobines sont revenues du laboratoire et n'étaient pas impressionnées...
Il s'agissait d'une force obscure ?
L'art est une force obscure. La peinture, et en particulier les grands tableaux, ont cette capacité de troubler le cerveau humain. Plusieurs touristes se sont jetés dans l'Arno après avoir visité la Galerie des Offices à Florence. Adolescent, je me suis perdu pendant une journée dans Athènes après avoir été choqué par la vision du Parthénon. L'art est parfois meurtrier.
Propos recueillis par Jérémie Couston en décembre 2007 trouvés ici.
Jessica Harper
Come mai, pensi, Argento, abbia scelto te per interpetare la protagonista di Suspiria?
Da quanto ne so, mi aveva vista recitare nel film "Il fantasma del palcoscenico" di De palma e pensò che sarei stata adatta al ruolo di protagoista del suo nuovo film horror.
Come furono i tuoi rapporti con Dario Argento?
Di grande cordialità. Ero felicissima di poter lavorare con lui. E lui è sempre stato molto carino e rispettoso nei miei riguardi...
Vi siete mai più reincontrati dopo il film?
No, per una serie di ragioni ed impegni non siamo più riusciti ad incontrarci. Purtroppo.
Ricordi qualche particolare curioso che accadde durante la lavorazione del film?
Ne ho parecchi di ricordi. Per esempio, nella scena finale, quando dovevo correre nel corridoio con vetri e muri che esplodevanon dappertutto. Ero davvero terrorizzata. E quel coordinatore degli effetti speciali che allora il coordinatore degli effetti speciali con il braccio ingessato, che si innervosiva in ogni momento diventando buffissimo. E quando Dario venne da me con una busta di plastica. La aprì per mostrarmi il contenuto. Io pensai subito ad un sandwich o a qualcosa di quel genere. Invece vidi che conteneva migliaia di schifosissimi vermi... urlai spaventata. Pensai ad uno scherzo. Appresi, invece, che quei vermi avrebbero preso parte ad alcune scene del film. E cadermi sulla testa. Fra i capelli....
Quanto tempo ci volle per girare la scena iniziale dell'arrivo di Susy sotto la pioggia? La scena di apertura?
Non molto. Ricordo che la girammo in una sola notte.
In molte scene del film è la tua espressione a colpire. Emana innocenza, candore, genuinità. Sembri un po' la Biancaneve capitata per caso nel bosco, in questo caso nel bel mezzo della Foresta Nera...
No, sinceramente non mi sono ispirata a Biancaneve, non avevo un preciso punto di riferimento in tal senso. Però, ora che mi ci fai pensare, avrei dovuto, sarebbe stata un'idea perfetta, per caricare ulterioremente la mia interpretazione.
Nelle ultimissime sequenze di Suspiria, quando Susy esce di scena, abbozza un inspiegabile sorriso. cosa significa? Forse anche lei alla fine diventa una specie di strega?
Forse lo è. Non posso rivelarlo. Questo è un mio piccolo segreto (...e di Dario)!
Girasti tutte le scene in esterno a Monaco, vero?
Sì, ma la gran parte del film, che si svolgeva in ambienti chiusi, quelli dell'accademia di danza, furono girati comunque a Roma.
Cosa ricordi di quel periodo, in generale?
Era il 1976,non mi ricordo quasi niente! Eccetto la lavorazione del film. Molti dei miei ricordi, a questo proposito sono ancora nitidi e precisi.
Suspiria è per molti, Stephen King compreso, uno dei film fondamentali per la storia del genere horror nel cinema. La pensi allo stesso modo?
Penso che sia un film assolutamente unico, senza ombra di dubbio, con quei colori, quelle immagini, quelle musiche. Tutto è perfetto in quel film. E penso che pochi registi siano riusciti ad eguagliare Dario Argento, dopo Suspiria.
Suspiria è rimasto nell'immaginario collettivo di noi italiani, come un film indimenticabile, che ha segnato più di una generazione. E questo, oltre alla maestria registica di Argento è sicuramente dovuto anche alla tua ottima recitazione, che ha reso molto credibile il personaggio di Susy Bannet. Anche in America, sei così famosa per questo film?
Sì, devo dire che in America c'è molta gente che si ricorda di Suspiria e che lo ama ancora molto. Anche chi all'epoca non era ancora nato! Mi dicevano, per esempio, che all'U.C.Berkeley, Suspiria ha un seguito incredibile fra i ragazzi. Sono passati tanti anni, eppure è un film per certi versi così moderno...
Sei rimasta in qualche modo legata emotivamente a questo film?
Indubbiamente sì. Girarlo per me è stata una esperienza fondamentale che esercita ancora un forte ricrdo. Io, poi, legai moltissimo con alcune persone che lavorarono con me sul set per cui, quando ripenso a Suspiria, a quel particolare momento della mia carriera, ne conservo una immagine estremamente positiva.
Ma Jessica Harper crede nella reale esistenza delle streghe?
Sinceramente, devo dirti che questo è un altro mio segreto... e non voglio rivelarlo!
Reciteresti in un nuovo film di Dario Argento?
Se me lo chiedesse, non rifiuterei di certo!
Entretien avec Jessica Harper, trouvé ici.
Da quanto ne so, mi aveva vista recitare nel film "Il fantasma del palcoscenico" di De palma e pensò che sarei stata adatta al ruolo di protagoista del suo nuovo film horror.
Come furono i tuoi rapporti con Dario Argento?
Di grande cordialità. Ero felicissima di poter lavorare con lui. E lui è sempre stato molto carino e rispettoso nei miei riguardi...
Vi siete mai più reincontrati dopo il film?
No, per una serie di ragioni ed impegni non siamo più riusciti ad incontrarci. Purtroppo.
Ricordi qualche particolare curioso che accadde durante la lavorazione del film?
Ne ho parecchi di ricordi. Per esempio, nella scena finale, quando dovevo correre nel corridoio con vetri e muri che esplodevanon dappertutto. Ero davvero terrorizzata. E quel coordinatore degli effetti speciali che allora il coordinatore degli effetti speciali con il braccio ingessato, che si innervosiva in ogni momento diventando buffissimo. E quando Dario venne da me con una busta di plastica. La aprì per mostrarmi il contenuto. Io pensai subito ad un sandwich o a qualcosa di quel genere. Invece vidi che conteneva migliaia di schifosissimi vermi... urlai spaventata. Pensai ad uno scherzo. Appresi, invece, che quei vermi avrebbero preso parte ad alcune scene del film. E cadermi sulla testa. Fra i capelli....
Quanto tempo ci volle per girare la scena iniziale dell'arrivo di Susy sotto la pioggia? La scena di apertura?
Non molto. Ricordo che la girammo in una sola notte.
In molte scene del film è la tua espressione a colpire. Emana innocenza, candore, genuinità. Sembri un po' la Biancaneve capitata per caso nel bosco, in questo caso nel bel mezzo della Foresta Nera...
No, sinceramente non mi sono ispirata a Biancaneve, non avevo un preciso punto di riferimento in tal senso. Però, ora che mi ci fai pensare, avrei dovuto, sarebbe stata un'idea perfetta, per caricare ulterioremente la mia interpretazione.
Nelle ultimissime sequenze di Suspiria, quando Susy esce di scena, abbozza un inspiegabile sorriso. cosa significa? Forse anche lei alla fine diventa una specie di strega?
Forse lo è. Non posso rivelarlo. Questo è un mio piccolo segreto (...e di Dario)!
Girasti tutte le scene in esterno a Monaco, vero?
Sì, ma la gran parte del film, che si svolgeva in ambienti chiusi, quelli dell'accademia di danza, furono girati comunque a Roma.
Cosa ricordi di quel periodo, in generale?
Era il 1976,non mi ricordo quasi niente! Eccetto la lavorazione del film. Molti dei miei ricordi, a questo proposito sono ancora nitidi e precisi.
Suspiria è per molti, Stephen King compreso, uno dei film fondamentali per la storia del genere horror nel cinema. La pensi allo stesso modo?
Penso che sia un film assolutamente unico, senza ombra di dubbio, con quei colori, quelle immagini, quelle musiche. Tutto è perfetto in quel film. E penso che pochi registi siano riusciti ad eguagliare Dario Argento, dopo Suspiria.
Suspiria è rimasto nell'immaginario collettivo di noi italiani, come un film indimenticabile, che ha segnato più di una generazione. E questo, oltre alla maestria registica di Argento è sicuramente dovuto anche alla tua ottima recitazione, che ha reso molto credibile il personaggio di Susy Bannet. Anche in America, sei così famosa per questo film?
Sì, devo dire che in America c'è molta gente che si ricorda di Suspiria e che lo ama ancora molto. Anche chi all'epoca non era ancora nato! Mi dicevano, per esempio, che all'U.C.Berkeley, Suspiria ha un seguito incredibile fra i ragazzi. Sono passati tanti anni, eppure è un film per certi versi così moderno...
Sei rimasta in qualche modo legata emotivamente a questo film?
Indubbiamente sì. Girarlo per me è stata una esperienza fondamentale che esercita ancora un forte ricrdo. Io, poi, legai moltissimo con alcune persone che lavorarono con me sul set per cui, quando ripenso a Suspiria, a quel particolare momento della mia carriera, ne conservo una immagine estremamente positiva.
Ma Jessica Harper crede nella reale esistenza delle streghe?
Sinceramente, devo dirti che questo è un altro mio segreto... e non voglio rivelarlo!
Reciteresti in un nuovo film di Dario Argento?
Se me lo chiedesse, non rifiuterei di certo!
Entretien avec Jessica Harper, trouvé ici.
samedi 8 mai 2010
Dario Argento
S'il y a des questions auxquelles je ne peux pas répondre, je te le dis avant. Parce que je peux mentir. Quand j'étais journaliste il y a très longtemps, je parlais avec des metteurs en scène, leur posais des questions et bla bla bla, ils connaissaient tout. Alors je me disais "Ce sont des monstres !". Beaucoup d'entre eux disaient une chose, le lendemain une autre. Moi, si je ne sais pas, je ne te dis rien !
Est-ce que vous aimez les films qui font peur, et pourquoi ?
Certainement, oui, mais ce ne sont pas les seuls films que j'aime. Il y a deux personnes, le metteur en scène Dario Argento et une autre personne, moi en ce moment. Je ne connais pas très bien Dario Argento ! C'est vrai ! Quelques fois je voudrais m'arrêter pendant deux ans pour parler avec lui, parce que lui, il travaille, il pense ! Moi je le regarde travailler si intensément... C'est une chose un peu schizophrénique. Moi, je voudrais savoir pourquoi dans mes films, il y a toujours de l'eau, des femmes, qu'elles soient protagonistes ou victimes. Mes héros sont toujours des femmes. Pourquoi tous ces couloirs, toutes ces portes ? C'est quelque chose d'instinctif. Ma fille me demande aussi, quelquefois. Mais je ne sais pas !
Est-ce que vous avez peur dans la vie quotidienne ?
Oui, comme tous. J'ai peur des voitures, de plein de choses de la vie quotidienne, mais aussi de choses plus profondes, de la nuit, quand je suis seul à la maison ou quand je voyage. J'ai des peurs sombres, de choses inexplicables. Ca dépend de mon état d'âme. Je me rappelle avoir lu il y a longtemps un livre d'Anatole France sur le diable, pas vraiment un livre de peur, avec un diable sympathique [Il s'agit probablement du Puits de Sainte Claire]. Je le lisais, j'étais peut-être dans un état d'âme particulier, j'étais tout seul à la maison et je sentais la présence de ce diable. Moi je ne crois pas au diable. Je crois au bien et au mal, mais le diable, avec sa queue fourchue et tout ça, j'y crois pas. En lisant ce livre, je me suis dis que le diable existait peut-être. Je ne sais pas pourquoi. J'ai lu des livres incroyables. Ca, c'était un livre très gentil. Ca devait être mon état d'âme, à moins qu'il n'y ait eu dans ce livre un message un peu inconnu, mystérieux.
Est-ce que la mort vous angoisse ?
Oui. Quand mon père est mort, ça a été une chose terrible pour moi. Il était aussi mon producteur [notamment de son premier long métrage, L'oiseau au plumage de cristal]. J'étais très lié à lui.
Dans tous vos films, il y a une limite, une frontière. Dans Le Fantôme de l'opéra, il y a le monde souterrain et au-dessus le monde ordinaire...
Oui, et quand tu passes cette frontière, tu trouves peut-être quelque chose de merveilleux, peut-être quelque chose d'horrible. C'est la porte du mystère. La vie, c'est comme dans une chambre noire. Au milieu de la chambre, il y a un petit fil, très fin, tendu, qui sépare le bien du mal. Mes personnages franchissent parfois cette ligne, parfois non.
Quelques fois ils la franchissent très tranquillement alors que nous, nous en serions incapables !
Quelques fois il n'y a pas de lumière et tu ne vois pas le fil, alors, tu découvres certaines choses par hasard ou parce que tu n'étais pas attentif.
A la fin du Fantôme de l'opéra, Christine quitte avec regret le fantôme, le côté sombre, et va vers la lumière. Lumière qu'elle aime aussi, puisqu'elle aime le Baron. N'est-ce pas une allégorie de votre parcours de réalisateur, qui quitte un certain côté sombre des choses, peut-être un certain genre de films ?
Non, absolument pas. C'est lié à ce film. Je suis très attaché à mon côté sombre. Je ne peux pas l'oublier, il fait partie de ma vie. Tout le monde a un côté sombre, un peu malin, un peu cruel. C'est Freud qui l'a découvert. Quand tu le connais, tu peux dialoguer avec ton côté sombre, il devient quelque chose de présent dans ta vie. Alors tu peux dialoguer avec lui sans qu'il te mange. Sinon il te mange et tu deviens fou, un serial killer..
Certains plans de vos films semblent directement sortis de l'inconscient ou du rêve. Cela fait penser à Ingmar Bergman qui a dit avoir construit certains de ses scénarii à partir de fragments de rêves, notamment Cris et chuchotements. Par ailleurs vous avez dit que Bergman était votre réalisateur favori. Y a-t-il là un lien entre vous deux ?
Oui, c'est vrai. Mais pas seulement avec Bergman, plusieurs metteurs en scène parlent de rêves. Ses films sont presque comme des rêves. Il donne un rythme au film qui est celui d'un rêve. Dans mes films aussi il y a beaucoup de choses qu'on n'explique pas. Mais, pour moi, ces choses ont des significations. Dans mes rêves, il y a une architecture parfaite. Je pense qu'il faut rester mystérieux. Comme dans Inferno où il faut résoudre des énigmes. Le film c'est tout ça, ce mystère. Une jeune fille a découvert dans un livre le mystère de la vie. Ce film m'a beaucoup touché. A sa sortie, beaucoup de gens ne l'ont pas compris, disaient qu'il n'avait pas de sens. Mais il a un sens ! C'est un film difficile, comme escalader une montagne. C'est un peu ésotérique.
Toujours en rapport avec le rêve, dans plusieurs de vos films il y a une scène "primale", généralement au début du film, à laquelle le ou la protagoniste principal assiste, mais qu'il ne comprend pas dans sa totalité. Par la suite, il essayera de décrypter cette scène dans laquelle se trouve la solution de l'énigme du film...
Oui, mais ce n'est pas important de résoudre l'énigme. Ce qui est intéressant, c'est la recherche pendant tout le film. Dans tous mes films il y a quelqu'un qui cherche, qui est poussé par cette fièvre de recherche, parfois sans aucun sens, sans vraie raison.
Le parcours du personnage principal est donc de chercher une réponse, de déchiffrer cette scène primale. Il y a là un parallèle avec la psychanalyse et le travail d'exhumation du contenu latent d'un rêve qu'effectue un psychanalyste. Est-ce volontaire ?
Non, c'est inconscient. J'écris comme un fou. Les choses viennent naturellement. Mais il est vrai que j'ai une adoration pour Freud et Jung. Je suis allé plusieurs fois visiter la maison de Freud et les lieux où il a vécu. Je pense que les lieux où l'on vit sont très importants, d'où mon pèlerinage. J'ai fait la même chose avec l'autre amour de ma vie, Edgar Allan Poe. J'ai fait toute l'Amérique pour chercher où il est né, où il s'est marié, où il a étudié. J'ai tourné un petit documentaire sur ça.
Avez-vous lu la psychanalyse des oeuvres d'Edgar Poe par Marie Bonaparte?
Oui et je l'ai fait lire à George Romero quand il faisait L'étrange cas de Monsieur Valdemar [son sketch du film Two evil eyes, dont Argento réalisa l'autre partie, Le chat noir].
Donc, vous connaissez bien les théories de l'inconscient, mais ne les utilisez pas...
On dit que les scènes de meurtres sont des scènes érotiques, on dit que les hommes sont moins habiles que les femmes pour comprendre cela. On dit beaucoup de choses...Avez-vous déjà fait une psychanalyse ?
Non.
Vos films sont-ils un moyen pour vous d'évacuer des choses ?
Non, je ne pense pas. Ce n'est pas aussi simple que ça ; tu manges et puis tu vas au cabinet... Ils ne sont pas la digestion de tout ce que l'on est.
Vous êtes maintenant parvenu à un stade qui doit vous offrir une certaine tranquillité, une stabilité ?
(Etonné) Quelle tranquillité, quelle stabilité pensez-vous que j'aie ?
D'un point de vue professionnel...
Non. J'ai une grande instabilité. Je suis comme toujours au bord de l'abîme, j'ai peur de plein de choses. C'est la raison pour laquelle je ne vois pas mes films avec le public. J'ai une angoisse incroyable de faire des films. Chaque fois, j'ai peur.
Avez-vous toujours l'impression d'être en quête de quelque chose ?
Oui. C'est comme s'il y avait quelque chose, une autre personne qui me martyrisait, qui me faisait du mal. Chaque fois je traverse cette porte, cette ligne pour entrer dans une atmosphère un peu troublante, qui perturbe ma vie pendant au moins un an, et moi je ne peux plus dormir, plus penser, plus faire l'amour, rien, parce qu'il y a cette vie terrible, fausse, imaginaire mais réelle pour moi. Et je dois la représenter de la meilleure manière possible en matière de technique. Moi je suis obsédé par la technique, par la caméra. Alors, j'ai peur de cela, je ne suis pas tranquille.
Aimez-vous être déstabilisé alors ?
Non, moi j'aimerais être aux Seychelles, sous le soleil, sur le sable, ne rien faire et ne penser à rien ! Mais c'est un rêve, une chose impossible parce que là-bas, après un certain temps, je préférerais retourner à ma vie à New York, à Paris ou à Rome. Je recommencerais à penser à des histoires, à écrire...
Vous avez dit qu'avant vos débuts dans la réalisation, vous avez vu des milliers de films. Avez-vous un film culte ?
Non. J'étais passionné par les films de recherche, surtout les films expressionnistes allemands et le futurisme russe. Aussi le cinéma américain des années 40 et 50, les films noirs, désespérés. Egalement les films de Murnau, Fritz Lang et of course du maître Hitchcock.
Interview de Rodolphe Gianni et Christian Cools le 30 janvier 1998, trouvée ici.
Est-ce que vous aimez les films qui font peur, et pourquoi ?
Certainement, oui, mais ce ne sont pas les seuls films que j'aime. Il y a deux personnes, le metteur en scène Dario Argento et une autre personne, moi en ce moment. Je ne connais pas très bien Dario Argento ! C'est vrai ! Quelques fois je voudrais m'arrêter pendant deux ans pour parler avec lui, parce que lui, il travaille, il pense ! Moi je le regarde travailler si intensément... C'est une chose un peu schizophrénique. Moi, je voudrais savoir pourquoi dans mes films, il y a toujours de l'eau, des femmes, qu'elles soient protagonistes ou victimes. Mes héros sont toujours des femmes. Pourquoi tous ces couloirs, toutes ces portes ? C'est quelque chose d'instinctif. Ma fille me demande aussi, quelquefois. Mais je ne sais pas !
Est-ce que vous avez peur dans la vie quotidienne ?
Oui, comme tous. J'ai peur des voitures, de plein de choses de la vie quotidienne, mais aussi de choses plus profondes, de la nuit, quand je suis seul à la maison ou quand je voyage. J'ai des peurs sombres, de choses inexplicables. Ca dépend de mon état d'âme. Je me rappelle avoir lu il y a longtemps un livre d'Anatole France sur le diable, pas vraiment un livre de peur, avec un diable sympathique [Il s'agit probablement du Puits de Sainte Claire]. Je le lisais, j'étais peut-être dans un état d'âme particulier, j'étais tout seul à la maison et je sentais la présence de ce diable. Moi je ne crois pas au diable. Je crois au bien et au mal, mais le diable, avec sa queue fourchue et tout ça, j'y crois pas. En lisant ce livre, je me suis dis que le diable existait peut-être. Je ne sais pas pourquoi. J'ai lu des livres incroyables. Ca, c'était un livre très gentil. Ca devait être mon état d'âme, à moins qu'il n'y ait eu dans ce livre un message un peu inconnu, mystérieux.
Est-ce que la mort vous angoisse ?
Oui. Quand mon père est mort, ça a été une chose terrible pour moi. Il était aussi mon producteur [notamment de son premier long métrage, L'oiseau au plumage de cristal]. J'étais très lié à lui.
Dans tous vos films, il y a une limite, une frontière. Dans Le Fantôme de l'opéra, il y a le monde souterrain et au-dessus le monde ordinaire...
Oui, et quand tu passes cette frontière, tu trouves peut-être quelque chose de merveilleux, peut-être quelque chose d'horrible. C'est la porte du mystère. La vie, c'est comme dans une chambre noire. Au milieu de la chambre, il y a un petit fil, très fin, tendu, qui sépare le bien du mal. Mes personnages franchissent parfois cette ligne, parfois non.
Quelques fois ils la franchissent très tranquillement alors que nous, nous en serions incapables !
Quelques fois il n'y a pas de lumière et tu ne vois pas le fil, alors, tu découvres certaines choses par hasard ou parce que tu n'étais pas attentif.
A la fin du Fantôme de l'opéra, Christine quitte avec regret le fantôme, le côté sombre, et va vers la lumière. Lumière qu'elle aime aussi, puisqu'elle aime le Baron. N'est-ce pas une allégorie de votre parcours de réalisateur, qui quitte un certain côté sombre des choses, peut-être un certain genre de films ?
Non, absolument pas. C'est lié à ce film. Je suis très attaché à mon côté sombre. Je ne peux pas l'oublier, il fait partie de ma vie. Tout le monde a un côté sombre, un peu malin, un peu cruel. C'est Freud qui l'a découvert. Quand tu le connais, tu peux dialoguer avec ton côté sombre, il devient quelque chose de présent dans ta vie. Alors tu peux dialoguer avec lui sans qu'il te mange. Sinon il te mange et tu deviens fou, un serial killer..
Certains plans de vos films semblent directement sortis de l'inconscient ou du rêve. Cela fait penser à Ingmar Bergman qui a dit avoir construit certains de ses scénarii à partir de fragments de rêves, notamment Cris et chuchotements. Par ailleurs vous avez dit que Bergman était votre réalisateur favori. Y a-t-il là un lien entre vous deux ?
Oui, c'est vrai. Mais pas seulement avec Bergman, plusieurs metteurs en scène parlent de rêves. Ses films sont presque comme des rêves. Il donne un rythme au film qui est celui d'un rêve. Dans mes films aussi il y a beaucoup de choses qu'on n'explique pas. Mais, pour moi, ces choses ont des significations. Dans mes rêves, il y a une architecture parfaite. Je pense qu'il faut rester mystérieux. Comme dans Inferno où il faut résoudre des énigmes. Le film c'est tout ça, ce mystère. Une jeune fille a découvert dans un livre le mystère de la vie. Ce film m'a beaucoup touché. A sa sortie, beaucoup de gens ne l'ont pas compris, disaient qu'il n'avait pas de sens. Mais il a un sens ! C'est un film difficile, comme escalader une montagne. C'est un peu ésotérique.
Toujours en rapport avec le rêve, dans plusieurs de vos films il y a une scène "primale", généralement au début du film, à laquelle le ou la protagoniste principal assiste, mais qu'il ne comprend pas dans sa totalité. Par la suite, il essayera de décrypter cette scène dans laquelle se trouve la solution de l'énigme du film...
Oui, mais ce n'est pas important de résoudre l'énigme. Ce qui est intéressant, c'est la recherche pendant tout le film. Dans tous mes films il y a quelqu'un qui cherche, qui est poussé par cette fièvre de recherche, parfois sans aucun sens, sans vraie raison.
Le parcours du personnage principal est donc de chercher une réponse, de déchiffrer cette scène primale. Il y a là un parallèle avec la psychanalyse et le travail d'exhumation du contenu latent d'un rêve qu'effectue un psychanalyste. Est-ce volontaire ?
Non, c'est inconscient. J'écris comme un fou. Les choses viennent naturellement. Mais il est vrai que j'ai une adoration pour Freud et Jung. Je suis allé plusieurs fois visiter la maison de Freud et les lieux où il a vécu. Je pense que les lieux où l'on vit sont très importants, d'où mon pèlerinage. J'ai fait la même chose avec l'autre amour de ma vie, Edgar Allan Poe. J'ai fait toute l'Amérique pour chercher où il est né, où il s'est marié, où il a étudié. J'ai tourné un petit documentaire sur ça.
Avez-vous lu la psychanalyse des oeuvres d'Edgar Poe par Marie Bonaparte?
Oui et je l'ai fait lire à George Romero quand il faisait L'étrange cas de Monsieur Valdemar [son sketch du film Two evil eyes, dont Argento réalisa l'autre partie, Le chat noir].
Donc, vous connaissez bien les théories de l'inconscient, mais ne les utilisez pas...
On dit que les scènes de meurtres sont des scènes érotiques, on dit que les hommes sont moins habiles que les femmes pour comprendre cela. On dit beaucoup de choses...Avez-vous déjà fait une psychanalyse ?
Non.
Vos films sont-ils un moyen pour vous d'évacuer des choses ?
Non, je ne pense pas. Ce n'est pas aussi simple que ça ; tu manges et puis tu vas au cabinet... Ils ne sont pas la digestion de tout ce que l'on est.
Vous êtes maintenant parvenu à un stade qui doit vous offrir une certaine tranquillité, une stabilité ?
(Etonné) Quelle tranquillité, quelle stabilité pensez-vous que j'aie ?
D'un point de vue professionnel...
Non. J'ai une grande instabilité. Je suis comme toujours au bord de l'abîme, j'ai peur de plein de choses. C'est la raison pour laquelle je ne vois pas mes films avec le public. J'ai une angoisse incroyable de faire des films. Chaque fois, j'ai peur.
Avez-vous toujours l'impression d'être en quête de quelque chose ?
Oui. C'est comme s'il y avait quelque chose, une autre personne qui me martyrisait, qui me faisait du mal. Chaque fois je traverse cette porte, cette ligne pour entrer dans une atmosphère un peu troublante, qui perturbe ma vie pendant au moins un an, et moi je ne peux plus dormir, plus penser, plus faire l'amour, rien, parce qu'il y a cette vie terrible, fausse, imaginaire mais réelle pour moi. Et je dois la représenter de la meilleure manière possible en matière de technique. Moi je suis obsédé par la technique, par la caméra. Alors, j'ai peur de cela, je ne suis pas tranquille.
Aimez-vous être déstabilisé alors ?
Non, moi j'aimerais être aux Seychelles, sous le soleil, sur le sable, ne rien faire et ne penser à rien ! Mais c'est un rêve, une chose impossible parce que là-bas, après un certain temps, je préférerais retourner à ma vie à New York, à Paris ou à Rome. Je recommencerais à penser à des histoires, à écrire...
Vous avez dit qu'avant vos débuts dans la réalisation, vous avez vu des milliers de films. Avez-vous un film culte ?
Non. J'étais passionné par les films de recherche, surtout les films expressionnistes allemands et le futurisme russe. Aussi le cinéma américain des années 40 et 50, les films noirs, désespérés. Egalement les films de Murnau, Fritz Lang et of course du maître Hitchcock.
Interview de Rodolphe Gianni et Christian Cools le 30 janvier 1998, trouvée ici.
Jessica Harper
Nic - Jessica, you've worked with a number of famous directors over the years including Woody Allen, Brian De Palma, and even Steven Spielberg. However, to many horror fans it is your work in Dario Argento's Suspiria that is your most memorable role. What was it like working with Argento on the film?
Jessica - Dario was great, very inspired and inspiring, and incredibly supportive. His high energy was infectious, as was his commitment to making a movie with such a strong and pure vision.
N - Is it true that Dario used some interesting techniques to build the mood on the set such as playing the soundtrack that his band Goblin made for the film at a very high volume during scary scenes?
J - It's funny, but I've heard that story so many times that I'm beginning to believe it, even though I have no memory of that actually happening. It may have been the case; I can't say that I know for sure, due to a faulty memory!
N - What do you remember as being the most challenging part of your work on Suspiria?
J - The final scene, when I had to run through an exploding hallway, was a little terrifying, probably the toughest scene to shoot. Those weren't computer-generated explosions, they were real!
N - In addition to Suspiria, you've been in a number of other features that fall into the horror genre. Are you a fan of horror films?
J - Funny you should ask: I don't really like horror films! It's better to act in them, to be the one doing the scaring, than to sit through them, to be the one being scared, which I find intolerable!
N - Is it different for you to make a horror movie as opposed to a regular drama or some other type of film?
J - No, not really. All acting works basically on the same principle: you have to connect to the material, make it real, regardless of the genre.
N - How do you think the genre has changed since Suspiria came out?
J - Since I don't like horror movies--well, I should say, I don't dislike them, I just don't want to see them--I'm not all that aware of changes in the genre because I haven't been paying attention. But I suspect that the level of gore has advanced considerably since Suspiria, which would probably look pretty tame next to, say, Saw.
Extrait d'un entretien trouvé ici.
Jessica - Dario was great, very inspired and inspiring, and incredibly supportive. His high energy was infectious, as was his commitment to making a movie with such a strong and pure vision.
N - Is it true that Dario used some interesting techniques to build the mood on the set such as playing the soundtrack that his band Goblin made for the film at a very high volume during scary scenes?
J - It's funny, but I've heard that story so many times that I'm beginning to believe it, even though I have no memory of that actually happening. It may have been the case; I can't say that I know for sure, due to a faulty memory!
N - What do you remember as being the most challenging part of your work on Suspiria?
J - The final scene, when I had to run through an exploding hallway, was a little terrifying, probably the toughest scene to shoot. Those weren't computer-generated explosions, they were real!
N - In addition to Suspiria, you've been in a number of other features that fall into the horror genre. Are you a fan of horror films?
J - Funny you should ask: I don't really like horror films! It's better to act in them, to be the one doing the scaring, than to sit through them, to be the one being scared, which I find intolerable!
N - Is it different for you to make a horror movie as opposed to a regular drama or some other type of film?
J - No, not really. All acting works basically on the same principle: you have to connect to the material, make it real, regardless of the genre.
N - How do you think the genre has changed since Suspiria came out?
J - Since I don't like horror movies--well, I should say, I don't dislike them, I just don't want to see them--I'm not all that aware of changes in the genre because I haven't been paying attention. But I suspect that the level of gore has advanced considerably since Suspiria, which would probably look pretty tame next to, say, Saw.
Extrait d'un entretien trouvé ici.
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